No the Dark Talon should be an aircraft or Skimmer, not both. If skimmer then it could be part of the formation. If an aircraft then it could be separate. Having both sort of breaks the rules a bit IMO. We shouldn't look to make a new special rule here. KISS.

I agree, the Dark Talon should be a skimmer.

The Nephilim is a lot of wishful thinking, meaning, this is what it was supposed to be; but unfortunately it is not in 40k. I agree with the comment that the Avenger Megabolter should be 30". I am divided on the next point, and that is the 2x shots. If you want to copy 40k, then it should be 1x. If you want to follow the fluff, then 2x. Darksword missiles, the same. Copy 40k, should be AT/AA 5+ or even AT 6+/ AA 5+; follow the fluff, I could see it your way.

IMO, I see the Neph as HB, ok as it; AMB 30" AP 4+/AA 5+; DSM 30" AT 6+ /AA 5+

The Shroud should be support (upgrade) for a RW attack squadron, not a formation unto itself. Could it have/give terrain modifiers?

The Vengeance; How can an assault cannon be 30", but the Plasma cannon on the vengeance is 15"? Take a MM speeder instead! I think it should have a range of 30", but be AP/AT 3+. I'm thinking more like a SM Fire Prism.

1. I think the "new" fluff shows there are no (and never really were - in fluff) restrictions on the type of speeder in the RAS.

2. Not sure what your are trying to say concerning the price reduction, exactly. But I hope you are saying that the RAS formation should be "built" from a basic set of bikes. Then through exchanges or upgrades, create and entire RAS with attack bikes and speeders.

3. There are no Jetbikes, except Sammael's.

4. Yes, plasma needs work. I like what you are getting at, though. Either alternate squads firing so that half the squads can fire each turn, or reduce the effectiveness so that it can fire each turn. I think another possibility is burnout on a "1", which could just give a blast marker (but this is really changing the rules for plasma, which is 'slow').


I'm considering making an all-RW army, if we can get the new units settled well-enough.

In the 2.1v DA list there are 8 units. If you reduce them to 6 units in the formation it becomes cheaper.


So then a character jetbike would be required. 3 Jetbikes on a unit base is a bit of a leap of logic/abstraction really but makes it easier to instigate. Otherwise "sammael" would just be a "counts as" character whereby you'd use a jetbike to represent an actual landspeeder etc.(skimmer unit). Also, as a unit to itself it's a bit more characterful.


I was hoping to see the DAs have a bit more flexibility with their plasma across the army so they're not hamstrung by its slowness but this is just an idea anyway.

Samuel specifically has the sole last working jetbike in the Imperium, jetbike bodyguards for him is definitely a no-no. If you want to include him just make him a Light Vehicle.

I think both the aircraft should be proper aircraft only and skimmer mode ignored for epic.

Fair enough on Sammael. I'd personally just use a jetbike model and "counts as" landspeeder in that case.

Personally, I would prefer to see the Dark Talon as an aircraft. Like I said earlier also, its purchase could be tied to RW formations to give a reasonable tie-in

If the Darktalon becomes an aircraft then wei have a stat problem with the Hurricane-bolters as these are FF-only weapons on the Land Rauider Crusader. I would rather see it as a Skimmer.

Plasmastorm Battery: it is a Plasmagun with 3 shots or a 5" Blast template. In my WhES it is 15cm AP4+/AT6+.
The Plasma Destroyer on the LemanRuss Executioner is a Plasma Cannon with 3 x shots (3 x 3" Blast templates).
I did go some of a middle way with it but stlil better than a Multi-melta.
3" or 5" template isn't a hell of a difference in Epic. 30cm AP4+/AT4+ Slow-firing might bemore appropiate but this would be the same stats as a Plasma Cannon.
How about AP3+/AT4+ Slow-firing for the Plasmastorm Battery?

Nephilim: I'munder the impression that it fires all missiles together. Same as the Epic Thunderbolt. So thame stats with the exeption that it is stated inthefluff, thatthe Darksqoerd Missiles are also used against aircrafts, so it has an AA value.

Yes Land Speeder Darkshroud should be a 0-1 Upgrade. These things are rare.

Ideas for Ravenwing Black Knights:

Dark Angels Ravenwing Black Knight
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Infantry 35cm 4+ 3+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Plasma Talons (15cm) SmallArms -
Corvus Hammers (base contact) Assault Weapopns -

Notes: Scout

Yes NO Mounted to represent their Skilled Rider ability. I also thought about to give them MW for their base FF-attack as the Plasma Talons are just short range Plasmaguns. But then Stormtroopers didn't get it too.


Deathwing Knights are just the same as CC-Terminators in Epic.
Deathwing Land Raiders have the same special rule as Venerable Dreadnoughts. So Invulnerable Save for them?
Deathwing Terminators can still mix CC weapons with basic weapons in the same Squad and now can take a Plasma Cannon. Still only 1 heavy weapon per 5 Terminators. Same as Codex Terminators.

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Remember, let's not try to shoe-horn every single GW wetdream into this list. It's not where we should head. Aircraft are important for this list given no allies but even the Darkshroud/Vengeance is almost pushing the boundaries IMO. If the DS is 0-1, is it really necessary?

Iif we have an established similar unit I feel we should be trying to stick with that unless we find that the list is lacking something with the current unit types(like the aircraft). And yes, you could apply this logic to Plasma Termies but Plasma is a flavour thing and thematic for the list, just as the Salamanders are all about the MMs etc.

Could Hurricane Bolters just be Nephilim HBs and change their stats to(spitballing):

multiple dice attacks?
tear drop template?
barrage template?

Just because they are Hurricane bolters doesn't mean they _have_ to conform to the current stats.

There is already a precedent for this without changing the weapon name.
You could treat the Hurricane Bolters (stats wise) similar to the way Storm Bolters have been done already.
Storm Bolters on Terminators and Landing Craft are just small arms weapons (FF) but on the Thunderbolt they are AP4+/AA5+.
Why not just do the same with the Hurricane Bolters, they are already small arms weapons on some units.
Just give them the appropriate stats for being on a fighter.

Excellent. There we go

Agreed.

I think your attitude toward hurricane bolters may be the answer to the plasma problem.

The Dark Talon would be a skimmer. It has a more similar role to a Storm Raven than a Nephilim (even though the Storm Raven makes a better air superiority fighter than a Nephilim). The Dark Talon is very much a ground support vehicle than air superiority.

I think the DS speeder would be a great addition to a RAS, provided it is done right. The Vengeance would be neat too. I could see a squadron of them on the table; but then I play Eldar as well, so its not such a stretch for me to want anti-grav tanks on the table. But, (dreaming of an all RW force) I think having the same stats as a plasma cannon isn't "just-right" for the LSV. I'd suggest BP, but that would be redundant (maybe x2 fire?). I still insist the range be 30 cm, instead of 15 cm. Other than that, not sure what the other stats should be just yet. I think it could fill a unique role and could be a possibility.

As for the other units, it could be neat to see a command squad, a la Seer Council, for Sammael without "mounted", and a lower FF, or even MW in FF if you wanted. Since he will be in a unit that does have mounted, I don't think having his stand not having it would be OP.

The rest, I just don't know if they warrant inclusion. Although, it definitely could be done, if it was insisted upon.

DA need the Nephilim. I think the Shround would be good, but not essential. The Vengeance, less so. I'd really like to see the disadvantages of plasma represented with something other than slow. The most important for me, maybe other than including an air unit, is constructing a RAS properly and with flexibility.

Example: start with a base cost for 6 bikes with the option to exchange 2 for attack bikes (MM or HB) then also the ability to buy LS upgrades (No limitation on type) to round-out the RAS. Or, start with 4 bikes, then buy upgrades for attack bikes and LS's. Something like that.

Dark Talon - I'll leave it to DA players/ACs to nut out the skimmer vs aircraft issue then, as I can go either way really.

RAS - Probably best to start with a 6 base and do swapsies IMO. It keeps the price reasonable but still gives flexibility. It also mirrors the Codex bikes a bit more closely which isn't a bad thing as it translates well when eventually costing issues come into it.

You could start with 4 but the upgrades would probably need to be definite inclusions or I think it becomes a min-max issue. The DS could always be a 0-1 upgrade/exchange whichever way we decide to go (if we feel it's a necessary inclusion - which in an all RW army, it just might be).

Nephilim missiles - How do they work? Are they a missile pod or free launch missiles? If the latter how do we feel about the One Shot rule being applied? It could make the craft a little less OTT and reduce the AA somewhat in a game.

Black Knights - I think they could just be bike units etc. They don't have much special really.

What's the 40K range on the Plasma turret on the Vengeance?

Plasma Storm Battery has a range of 24".

The Nephilim is armed with 6 Darksword Missiles. All are one-shot.

A full Ravenwing Attack Squadron is 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike and 1 Land Speeder. That's 10 Marines which is the usual Squad strength. I would rather see a formation of 4 Bikes (2 Squads/Squadrons) and the possibility to ADD up to two Attack Bikes and up to two Land Speeders than to swap them out.

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The range on the plasma storm is a bit wonky. So much so, I haven't seen one in any online list yet; especially due to its 40k points tag. A plasma cannon is 36". wtf?

Darksword missiles are only s6 ap4 (one use), the same as the Avenger Mega-bolter. An odd combo, if I may say so.

4 (units) bikes base would be fine, but starting at 6 then swapping for 2 attack bikes would be better IMO; since 6 bikes (units) are a descent stand alone unit without upgrades. You could start with 4 with the option to swap for an attack bike. Then upgrade to 3 more bikes (units), which opens up a speeder upgrade. But, 40k is a different game with different goals and limitations.

Although, I like the 6, exchange for 2 AB, and the option to upgrade for 2 LS. Maybe be able to upgrade for a DSLS, as well. It could give a -1 for cover for the unit. Range?

I guess 4 bikes in a formation is reasonable since devastators and jump pack marines come in 4's. would be nice to upgrade to extra, like in the current epic list, though.