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The Mud-Marine Challenge

Markconz

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:01 am

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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 04 2006,22:35)

QUOTE

Hmmm... I'll have to play with that a bit. ?As a strict percentage, 5+RA (5/9 chance of saving, 55.55%) is slightly better than 4+ flat (50%), except when under Lance (?) fire which ignores the RA. ?OTOH, under MW fire, the RA still has a chance to survive. ?It's probably a toss-up mathematically which armor is better more of the time. ?It needs some serious playtesting.

In 40k at least, Dreads are way too lightly armored to be useful, and the current Epic armor reflects that. ?I support 5+RA on dreads.

That's a good point about the Lance. Hadn't considered that. It is a very uncommon ability though, even in the Eldar list MW is a much more common than Lance. 5+ RA would be more vulnerable to Fire Prisms, Nightwings, Warwalkers and Shining Spears, but more resistant to all the other MW fire out there (and slightly more resistant to general AT fire).

I do disagree with your general statement on dreads being too lightly armoured to be useful in 40k. You just have to use cover (even if that cover is your own vehicles or a drop pod). Otherwise the first medium AT gun you come across will probably pop you as you imply. In open terrain dreads are probably dead after they use up their one turn of smokescreen - in denser terrain they can come into their own though. Also a good proportion of dreads in 40k are venerable, which considerably helps their survivability. 5+RA in Epic may well be worth considering given AV 12 dreads smaller profile compared to AV 13 tanks.

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nealhunt

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:32 pm

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(Markconz @ Nov. 04 2006,10:00)

QUOTE

I believe 5+ RA would be a good move for Vindis and Preds. This is another of those things (like Demolisher Cannons) where I can't understand why they were made so weak in EA in the first place.

4+ v 5+RA was just fine with the original army lists which have relatively few weapon systems that make a difference between the two. Special types of firepower have proliferated, reducing the inherent value of a 4+ save, imho.

Personally, I think that developing lists need to give up on the idea of having so many MW, TK and Disrupt weapon systems. All the weapon systems in 40K-verse are described as massivly powerful and awe-inspiring but that doesn't mean they all deserve special abilities.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:04 pm

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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Aye, this has helped reduce the ability of armies that rely on a lot of 'standard' 4+ saves (Looks around a bit, "Oh that'd be Marines then!") while leaving armies that don't rely on armour untouched.

So yeah, Marines need a few 5+RA saves to maintain the balance / help beef up those always-underperforming units like Dreadnoughts / Predators.

This can easily be justified both on pure 40k stats (The difference in armour between a Predator and a Leman Russ being relatively minor under most circumstances for example), and on background (Where Marines would be more adept at placing their units in optimal positions, adding extra protection to their tanks / dreadnoughts beyond simple brute armour).

Personally, I think that developing lists need to give up on the idea of having so many MW, TK and Disrupt weapon systems. All the weapon systems in 40K-verse are described as massivly powerful and awe-inspiring but that doesn't mean they all deserve special abilities.

When looking at whether a weapon should have MW, I look to the Multi-Melta as the baseline MW system.

If a weapon system is more powerful or equal in power, then I'm for MW status. Thus for example I believe that the Demolisher should gain MW status, as it is considerably more powerful than a Multi-Melta under most circumstances.

(A Multi-Melta can kill one heavy-armour infantryman or tank with ease per turn in 40k. A Demolisher cannon can kill ten heavy-armour infantrymen or tank per turn in 40k, with ease.)

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jfrazell

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:43 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 03 2006,17:14)

QUOTE

His list was basically a mechanised infantry force (Two large infantry units, one in falcons one in wave serpents), supported by skimmer tanks, a pair of Revenants, two units of Night Spinners, two cobra super-heavies. Oh and there were some Warp Spiders too.

No Avatar, no wraithgate, no farseer, no wraithguard, no wraithlords... it was an Aspect Warrior themed army basically.

If he reads this my opponent may jump in and post his full list and his own thoughts (Try not to gloat too much mate!), though I don't know if he's keeping current with this thread.

Ah, I am assuming he was able to out maneuver you (ie let you move forward and then hit formations in the flank or rear), isolate individual formations and then go for objectives? That would have been my tactic.

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jfrazell

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:47 pm

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(Markconz @ Nov. 04 2006,10:00)

QUOTE

I believe 5+ RA would be a good move for Vindis and Preds. ?This is another of those things (like Demolisher Cannons) where I can't understand why they were made so weak in EA in the first place. The difference between AV 13 for preds/vindis vs AV 14 for Leman Russ seems better suited to the 5+RA vs 4+RA values to me. It would also be a good way to encourage more use of the marine tanks. Land Raiders would still need something of course (like a 25-50 point drop).

I'd be ok with that as well for the same reasons actually. The Imperium is noted for strong tanks,. and these are the best designs of a medium tank in the Imperium. Game play it would not over balance them, but would give the ground pounder mechanized formation some survivability.

The difficulty might arise though in other lists - Tau lists and eldar lists. Falcons are great unkilly things in 40K, but in Epic at 5+ they go splat pretty easily (which is how it should be in my opinion).

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Bombot

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:12 pm

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(Hena @ Nov. 04 2006,09:32)

QUOTE

IMO changing the save (to better) on the marine tanks is entirely wrong way to go at it.

Yes, I think stopping the spread of MW before more of the guilty lists are made official would be more sensible, given how balanced the original three lists are often said to be when compared to one another.

Epic is set in the 40k universe but it is not the same game. If weapon or unit stats differ slightly for game balance purposes, then so be it.

Example: the Demolisher has had its range doubled when compared to the 40k version. It's not unreasonable that its power has been toned down slightly.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:39 pm

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(jfrazell @ Nov. 06 2006,13:43)

QUOTE

His firepower decently outranged me, so outmanuevering wasn't all that nessesary for him. I had to fight him on his terms for most of the game, at first because of range, and
in the later turns when my greatly depleted forces were too damaged to do any decent killing.

There were far fewer Engagements than you'd find in a normal Marine game.

I just got shot to bits at long range until my Marines had too few units left to provide an effective fighting force.

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:41 pm

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All the 40k Ranges are horribly & horrendously short ! So we have to watch for setting up an E:A vs. 40k paradigm ... 40K is a skirmish game centered/based on Close Combat; vs. Epic 6mm which can be a game of fire & movement ...

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:45 pm

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(Legion 4 @ Nov. 06 2006,15:41)

QUOTE

Aye, while the ground scale in Epic is somewhat compressed, the 40k ground scale is quite humerous indeed.

The longest range weapon in the game is the Basilisk, a pretty huge self-propelled gun with a range of... about 200 feet.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:06 pm

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Yes and back in RogueTrader times 1" where supposed to be the equivalent of 2m.

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:13 pm

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Yes, just another reason not to play 40K ! FA in both scales is off, but with Epic/6mm ... you can justify or rationalize ... An Epic/6mm Arty piece could fire the length of a real Football field. A real world 155 fires over 12 miles !

So we have to make some concessions for games scale vs. model scale in 6mm, 40k scale is just ridiculous ! So I agree with you E&C !

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:51 am

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Which list has had the profusion of MW and TK weapons?

It's NOT the Tau list, which should be able to remove every vehicle on the field in short order. All the Tau have is Fusion Blasters (which have the same statline as a Meltagun), and Tracer Missiles (which are purpose-built WE-killing missiles). The Tau only have 3 ranged TK attacks (all of which are mounted on large WEs: Moray, Tigershark AX10, and Manta).

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Suvarov454

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:29 am

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Well, one of the complaints about the Feral Orks is being able to give just about every formation a 45 cm MW 5+ attack.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:18 am

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Ah. Feral d'Orks. Those things should just be burned off the face of whatever planet they're infesting.

They're that unbalanced in 40k, too.

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:23 am

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V-bomb those Greenskins further back to the Stone Age !

But I got all the F/Ork stuff for a couple of Warbands !

I even added some Rice Hat's on some, I posted pics before ! Orky-Kong !

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