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Necrons in Helsinki tournament
Hojyn
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:13 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,18:57)
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1. The monoliths allow too easy popcorn list. Never mind that they are extremely good. So I've turned to support the capping of the monolith somehow. Perhaps 1/2 amount of opponents (round down) or cap at 5 or 10 shots or something? The cost might really need to upped to 85 perhaps.

I suggested a "1 Monolith per Phalanx" limitation some time ago. I think it's a good way to avoid "popcorn" lists without changing the Monolith stats and/or cost.

2. Pylons. These AA capability is most likely too good. I kept my AX-1-0 staying in the corner where I "might" survive without flying into its range (it was standing right next to blitz). So I'd definitely tune these range down (and most likely make them TK(1) as well). Cost probably needs looking at or 3DC for this?


Yes, I've noticed that once Pylons hit the table, aircraft no longer show up on te table... Which probably means they're too powerful.

How about MA5+/AA5+? The MA attack would still be OK since Pylons almost always Sustain, but the AA would be reduced to a more reasonable level.

Reducing the range might be a good idea as well. As for the cost, 250 must be the upper limit, otherwise it will be impossible to take a Pylon AND a Harvester Engine.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:14 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,18:57)
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1. The monoliths allow too easy popcorn list. Never mind that they are extremely good. So I've turned to support the capping of the monolith somehow. Perhaps 1/2 amount of opponents (round down) or cap at 5 or 10 shots or something? The cost might really need to upped to 85 perhaps.


First off, was the Necron player rolling the appropriate number of dice for "teleport mishaps"?

With 16 units worth of teleporters, and some of them being single units themselves, there's a good chance that at least a few of them will arrive broken. (I've seen *lots* of Pylons roll "snake-eyes" and arrive broken... and *stay* broken all game...)

Additionally, teleporting an AV or WE into almost any type of cover is going to require a dangerous terrain test, and that's a brutal way to lose a Monolith!

Personally, I think Monoliths should be aroung the 100 point mark, but I think I'm in the minority.

With FF5+, if there's 10 enemy units nearby *after* a Phalanx has attacked, that's only 4 hits on average, that doesn't seem that bad to me... and I've faced then with hordes of Orks and Tyranids!

2. Pylons. These AA capability is most likely too good. I kept my AX-1-0 staying in the corner where I "might" survive without flying into its range (it was standing right next to blitz). So I'd definitely tune these range down (and most likely make them TK(1) as well). Cost probably needs looking at or 3DC for this?


With AA4+, that means the two Pylons will, on average, knock out one aircraft, per squadron, per turn, so *some* planes should get through... and just put 2BMs on them and they're pretty well stuck as they don't "fade away" when broken.

I've always felt Pylons are fearsome in *appearance*, but less scary in practice. ?You just need to realize you're going to lose aircraft until you break them.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:16 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Feb. 26 2007,19:13)
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Yes, I've noticed that once Pylons hit the table, aircraft no longer show up on te table... Which probably means they're too powerful.

Personally, I think that's just fear of the Pylon on paper as, in play, they seem ridiculously easy to break at 2DC.

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Charad
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Pylon is too effective, that it is just not worth bringing transport aircraft on table before they are broken or dead. It doesn't even need lucky shot to kill T-hawk, and when in
pairs, ouch!
Of course, they ain't so useful against 9 fightas, but does many armies have such huge air formations?

Also, it is very good objective grapper and living metal gives it  good durability. And the point is that when combined with monolith popcorn army, opponent doesn't have recources to break those...

And with monolith, whit those great abilities, I agree that cost should be about 100pts.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:44 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,19:29)
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My own game lastes almost full turn until I folded.

First activation 4 monos + phalanx ?killed:
Firewarrior Cadre + extra FW
Pathfinder SG
Human Aux


So all these formations were intermingled?  Were none garrisoned on overwatch?

Were you using the experimental assault rules?

Because if you wipe out the Phalanx in the assault, none of the supporting Monoliths get to shoot, but they still all get a Blast marker for being in range.

He teleported 6 monos, of which 2 broke on arrival. Pylon came in ok. It doesn't matter if the monos break as long as there is unbroken ones as you can use the portals on broken ones. Remember that the phalanxes don't teleport.


So two broke on arrival, okay, if you had gone first, you could've broken/destroyed two more, or, it they were all close by, you could've engaged one, most likely killed/broken it and spread Blast markers to any others in support range.

Broken Monoliths can't lend support fire.

The thing is that that list teleports in your face and you don't have anything to deal the Pylons in the back. Never mind that you need something fancy to reach it (as it can be in it's own deployment zone and still blast you to bits).

Two Pylons, on average, can kill one non-aircraft/war engine a turn... how is that blasting to bits?

With Tau's long range weaponry. a double should allow you to put BM's on them with relative ease.

Sorry to be an armchair general here and all.  I realize that Necrons can pull off some insane things, but they need to go "first" in a turn to do it or they're taking a big risk.

What was your full army comp against these Necrons, Hena?

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asaura
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:12 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 26 2007,19:44)
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Because if you wipe out the Phalanx in the assault, none of the supporting Monoliths get to shoot, but they still all get a Blast marker for being in range.

How can one wipe out an Engaging Phalanx in an assault? Even a basic Phalanx has 7 units with 4+ save. Wiping them out is a tall order for anyone. Have you seen it happen? In what circumstances?
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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:21 pm 
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(asaura @ Feb. 27 2007,12:12)
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How can one wipe out an Engaging Phalanx in an assault? Even a basic Phalanx has 7 units with 4+ save. Wiping them out is a tall order for anyone. Have you seen it happen? In what circumstances?

Actually, the base Necron Phalanx has only 6 units in it, the Lord is a "character".  Of course, you almost *always* see at least a Pariah in there!  *laugh*

As to Necrons getting wiped out, I direct you to the following:

Necrons vs Tyranids

Updated that BatRep with some pictures I forgot to add!




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asaura
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Chroma, am I correct when I guess that you guys are playing with the Speed Dice Rolling design concept from the experimental rules?

The thing is, I am baffled at the results in that reported game. They are quite unlikely to happen (with either the printed rules or the experimental assault rules). Here's some math on wiping out 6 units with 4+ save.

Consider the assault of Phalanx 2 on Assault Swarm 1 on turn 1. There were 13 Tyranid units making attacks. Let's take an extreme result and assume that the Tyranids scored 12 hits.

Score 12 hits on 6 units with 4+ save. Two hits per unit.

CODE

Chance to kill one unit with the two hits
= 1-(1/2*1/2) = 0,75

Chance to kill the 1. unit = 0,75
... and the 2. unit = 0,75^2 = 0,56
... and the 3. unit = 0,75^3 = 0,42
... and the 4. unit = 0,75^4 = 0,32
... and the 5. unit = 0,75^5 = 0,24
... and the 6. unit = 0,75^6 = 0,18


If you used the Speed Dice Rolling system, the odds of everyone dying went up to to 0,50, which is a lot more than the 0,18 with the basic rules. Now, even that only happens half the time, and we started up with an extremely unlikely case of the Tyranids scoring 12 hits.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Ah, just to be more clear, the "wipe out" of that Phalanx also included combat resolution, I don't always go into the specific details when writing the reports, as this was mainly just a "for fun" game.

The Necrons only took out 4 Tyranid units in the Phalanx 2 vs Assault Swarm 1 exchange, while the Tyranids had taken out 4 Necron units, including the Pariah, in exchange, so the Tyranids were up +2 for vastly out-numbering and subsequently "hacked down" the surviving Necron Warriors.


(asaura @ Feb. 27 2007,13:00)
QUOTE
The thing is, I am baffled at the results in that reported game. They are quite unlikely to happen (with either the printed rules or the experimental assault rules). Here's some math on wiping out 6 units with 4+ save.


I'm no stats guru, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you have 12 hits against six 4+ targets, aren't you, statisitically, wiping them out?

Each target is assigned two hits, odds are they make one save and fail one save, so that means they're all gone in the end.

What am I doing wrong?

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asaura
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:28 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 27 2007,13:56)
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Ah, just to be more clear, the "wipe out" of that Phalanx also included combat resolution, I don't always go into the specific details when writing the reports, as this was mainly just a "for fun" game.

OK. That's what confused me. The reason I am nitpicking about this is that bit you wrote about Monoliths not getting to shoot in support fire if the Phalanx is wiped out. I believe it is very rare for that to happen.


I'm no stats guru, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you have 12 hits against six 4+ targets, aren't you, statisitically, wiping them out?

Each target is assigned two hits, odds are they make one save and fail one save, so that means they're all gone in the end.

What am I doing wrong?


Odds are that one target in four fails both saves, one target in four fails first save but succeeds in the second, one target in four succeeds in the first save but fails the second, and one target in four succeeds in both saves. Does this sound right? It should. That's what my calculations (above) show. The 0,75 is the chance of any given target failing at least one save.

You're going wrong when you assume that statistics says that every family has 1.5 kids. In reality, of course, no family has 1.5 kids. Statistics can give you an average child count, but that generally does not mean you will have exactly that many kids.

(edited to correct the comment about 0,75)
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dptdexys
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:36 pm 
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The Necrons only took out 4 Tyranid units in the Phalanx 2 vs Assault Swarm 1 exchange, while the Tyranids had taken out 4 Necron units, including the Pariah, in exchange, so the Tyranids were up +2 for vastly out-numbering and subsequently "hacked down" the surviving Necron Warriors.



I thought the mention of the necrons getting wiped out was to show it can be done before the support FF comes in but you now mention hackdowns from combat resolution causing the wipe out.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons in Helsinki tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:50 pm 
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(dptdexys @ Feb. 27 2007,14:36)
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I thought the mention of the necrons getting wiped out was to show it can be done before the support FF comes in but you now mention hackdowns from combat resolution causing the wipe out.

Well, I hadn't reviewed my notes when I posted that, so I was mis-remembering things. ?Sorry for the confusion! ?*laugh*

Fighting against Necrons is all about positioning.

One thing to try is garrisoning off of your own Blitz to put two "guard" formations on overwatch. ?As well, you can "turtle", packing your units/formations tightly together in firebases so it makes them difficult to clip. ?Or you can go for the widely dispersed route so there's no one "awesome target" for the Necrons to surround.

One interesting approach I realized during Dobbsy's and Pipboy's fight is attempting to fill your deployment zone with Zones of Control so the Necrons can't get to your juicy units: ?Place the majority of your formations directly against your table edge and place scouts formations 12-13cm away, against the forward edge of your deployment zone (perhaps even garrison off your Blitz to allow overwatch setup). ?With this type of defense in depth the Monoliths will have to arrive outside your scout screen and will initially have nothing that juicy to attack.

I realize not everyone takes scouts, but it can also be done with lines of cheaper formations spread 8cm apart. ?Just be sure to anchor the ends of your setup!




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