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Necron Game vs. Squats
Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:27 pm 
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I played a 3000 point game against ePilgrim's Squat/Demiurg list.

One of the things that came up was Marshalling...  I know, I was just saying it didn't seem broken, BUT seeing is believing.

I had a formation that had broken on the previous turn and was down to 2 units.  It came on in Turn 4 and MARSHALLED via the Tomb Complex.  So it moved just out of the portal, then marshalled, and was at full strength with no blast markers.  Coming right out of the portal, this seems overpowered, but I don't have a real solution.
ePilgrim suggested just a limit on the portal rules (i.e. No marshalling when arriving through a portal).  I don't know.  It seems contrived, but it certainly would fix the problem.

Marshalling doesn't need the +1.  I can't imagine it would make them too weak to play and -given the frequency of marshalling- it wouldn't be missed.

We played the Obelisks as 65 points instead of 50 points and losing the scout ability.  They certainly felt much better on the balance issue.  

By default, the Monoliths certainly felt more balanced with the Obelisk changes.  ePilgrim whined about the +1 per unit in 15cm.  To me I could see this being a bit gross and deserving of a cap (limit 6 units maximum).  However, the it really did not play a huge part in the game as I only had one Monolith left out of three at the end of turn 2 (yikes).  I don't want to see it changed unless there is some real problems with it (and I haven't seen that yet).

Played the Deceiver and... didn't get to use it ONCE.  It broke right off the bat when I took two BMs for teleporting, then a single shot sent it running.  Turn 2 watched it get vaporized in a single volley.  Disappointing to say the least.

Turn 3 was hallmarked by a combined assault I did against a brotherhood and his BTS Goal (Goliath Super Heavy).  BTS died and the formation broke.  It was a lucky assault for me as I killed far more than the average.  He subsequently took out the Monolith, leaving me with one...

When ePilgrim close-combated that remaining Monolith and Obelisk, he forgot that they were skimmers.  I wasn't about to remind him either.  That -combined with supporting fire- killed his Supreme Commander.  

Game was won by the Necrons on Turn 4 3-1.  BTS, Blitz, TnH vs. TnH.  

No pics.  Sorry!

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fbruntz
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:25 am 
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I don't agree about the "marshalling problem".
If you marshall, yes you'll gain full strength but you'll also lost a turn.

In addition, I've also got an example : in my last game, a phalanx had been reduced to one single unit (broken).

How could I use the 'I'll be back' rule if I need BM to marshall? First BM, formation broken so it disapears at the end of the turn...

If I can't marshall when I come from a portal, how can I make my formation (still 1 unit left) to survive a whole turn? And I lose 2 turns and not 1. One to come back and an other to Marshall.


I don't see any problem with the actual rule. Usually, you don't have numerous units in Necron formation so it's not so powerful.

I think the main problem of the list are the cost of the Monolith/Obelisks (too low), the cost of Parias/Immortals (too expensive) and the tomb spiders.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:16 pm 
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one of the things left out of the report, and something that has hallmarked my epic games as of late, has been my abysmal dice rolling...especially during critical rolls.

for the most part the game was going my way until I picked up the dice on turn three...then it literally came apart.

Regarding the Monolith, the +1 per 15cm only seems troubling during the fire support phase, where a token assault from another formation can lead to mass shooting by the Monolith if it can support. The key being that even if you can't kill it (a traditional problem for me it seems) at least break it.

Marshalling out of a portal was much more powerful than I imagined (with no regards to the +1). Basically a formation has the possibility of coming back whole. The only way of stopping this near a teleporting Monolith would be with scouts, the Tomb Complex could be ringed by anybody, but scouts would be best here too.

The Obelisk changes seemed correct (65 points, no scout).

The Demiurg played well minus the dice rolling. I probably could have benefitted from taking Sandhogs for their fearless ability, but as noted by Moscovian the Monolith and Obelisks are skimmers so perhaps not.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:33 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 16 2006,19:27)
QUOTE
I had a formation that had broken on the previous turn and was down to 2 units. ?It came on in Turn 4 and MARSHALLED via the Tomb Complex. ?So it moved just out of the portal, then marshalled, and was at full strength with no blast markers. ?Coming right out of the portal, this seems overpowered, but I don't have a real solution.

Actually, I just noticed that can't do that.

Phase Out
The formation will automatically rally in the end phase and lose all blast markers.


Necron
When a formation regroups due to rallying, performing a Marshal action, or a Hold action, the formation may either remove blast markers, or return fallen units with the Necron ability to play up to the number of blast markers it could remove, or any combination of the two.

As for the +1 to Marshall, I (again) really don't think see it as a problem. So the Necrons can Marshall automatically... is that really overpowered?

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:43 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 17 2006,13:36)
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AH HA! There was a cap ... sodding hell. ?I missed it :D.

Yeah, I think we all did actually !  :p
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:54 pm 
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ePilgrim's rolls weren't so bad as mine were way over the top.

Turn 1 was an excercise in watching how much of my stuff die.
Turn 2 was a dead-on odds for the game, but still didn't benefit me much.
Turn 3 is where two major assaults went horribly wrong for my dwarven friend.
Turn 4 was the point of no return.

I had pointed out that the Marshalling could have been prevented by his units coming down and getting in the 'ZoC' of the portal as it were.  Had he blockaded the portal he would have had 3 units + inspiring forcing 2 units into a firefight, which would most likely resulted in a win for the assault.  Had that happened, he would have achieved blitzkrieg, TnH, and BTS in that one move since the formation that was coming through was my BTS goal.  It was a missed opportunity that would have driven the game to points and -I believe- to a Demiurg victory (remember formations off-board count as destroyed).  

Back to the marshalling problem...  The rules state on marshalling-

Marshal: The formation may either shoot with a -1
modifier and then regroup, or make one move and then
regroup. Regrouping allows the formation to remove
some of the Blast markers affecting the formation (see
1.13).

1.13.1 Regrouping
Formations that take a marshal action may regroup. Roll
2D6 and remove a number of Blast markers equal to the
highest roll. Note that the dice are not added together;
instead the score of the higher dice is used.

Necron ability: When a formation regroups due to rallying, performing a Marshal action, or a Hold action, the formation may either remove blast markers, or return fallen units with the Necron ability to play up
to the number of blast markers it could remove, or any combination of the two. For example, if you could remove 3 blast markers, you could remove 3 blast markers, or return 3 units to play, or remove two blast markers and return one unit, etc.

There is nothing in the core rules or in the Necron rule to indicate that the marshall(or regroup) needs a BM; only that you could have removed BMs in order to regenerate 'x' amount of units.

In light of this, what do y'all think about the removal of the +1 to the marshalling.  It would not have helped ePilgrim in this particular instance, but does the Necron list need the extra rule?  Anything coming through the portal isn't going to have a BM and thus will be unaffected.  Anything on the board will have to roll a 2+ !  

As for the Obelisks, try bumping their cost to 350 for the formation and the upgrades to the Monoliths to +65 each.  Remove their scout ability and you will find the Monoliths and the Obelisks are now much much better.

Were it not for the grace of the C'tan I would have lost that third Monolith and lost the game very quickly!

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:03 pm 
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to all replying to this batrep,

the rules were applied properly. the discussion is about the mechanics, not what may have been forgotten.

Other than not being broken, their are no prerequisites when selecting an action, so Moscovian's play of Marshalling from the portal was correct.

The +1 on Marshalling only affects active formations on the table with BM (to my recollection this did not affect our game). I still think with base init of 1+ it is unnecessary with no regard to it's utility.

Everything else that occurred during the battle could have been mitigated by better activation rolls on my part. On turn 3 having gained an initial Breakthrough positioning, I failed three tactically critical activations (two marches and an assault) and 1 rally (broken Iron Eagles) that left me unable to counter M's positioning on the table. Prior to these failures I had a significant advantage.

On the funny side he token assaulted a Rhino in a formation of Iron Breakers with his remaining Monolith, only to lose the assault resolution. Everything else was pretty much text book including my battle plan failing to survive contact with my own dice. ? ?:D




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Hojyn
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:08 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 17 2006,13:54)
QUOTE
There is nothing in the core rules or in the Necron rule to indicate that the marshall (or regroup) needs a BM; only that you could have removed BMs in order to regenerate 'x' amount of units.

The way I read it, you can Marshall even with no BM, but a Necron player doing so will be able to repair 0 unit (since, having no BM to start with, it could have removed 0).
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Hojyn
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:10 pm 
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(epilgrim @ Oct. 17 2006,14:03)
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Other than not being broken, their are no prerequisites when selecting an action, so Moscovian's play of Marshalling from the portal was correct.

Sure, but Necron formations with no BM attempting a Marshall action can't repair destroyed units. The play was correct, but up to a point only.
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fbruntz
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:56 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 17 2006,13:18)
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I think that 'Well be back' was not meant to regenerate your unit to full strenght after breaking, but help before it. Same as marshall order on any other unit. You can still move/fire with the formation during the same turn. If you are broken then you got beaten too fast. It's beautiful way to describe phase out in 40k.

You are not supposed to have 1 unit and use well be back ...


Then the rule must be re-written as this point is not clear at all.

Pariahs are not too expensive (they were the ones with inspiring, right) and neither are tomb spyders.


Yep, their cost is good but they are too expensive for their role in the game. Sorry, my poor English prevent me to be clear on that point... :(
In fact, it's the whole unit (cost and stats) that should be redone. For example, why are Parias "inspiring"? But this is a question for another topic, I'll create one about this.

Now this is one important point. I'll play Necrons at the Lyon's tournament in November so what is the correct rule about "We'll be back"?
Can I "we'll be back" units in a formation without any BMs or not?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Necron Game vs. Squats
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:57 pm 
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(epilgrim @ Oct. 17 2006,14:03)
QUOTE
On the funny side he token assaulted a Rhino in a formation of Iron Breakers with his remaining Monolith, only to lose the assault resolution. Everything else was pretty much text book including my battle plan failing to survive contact with my own dice. ? ?:D

Remind me of a game I played the other week.  A tactical formation assaulted an IG infantry.  After the counter charge I had two rhinos facing off against the IG commander  :laugh: .

Lost a rhino and broke the IG, without killing anyone in the assult (I guess guard are scared of boxes on wheels)

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