There's a lot of argument about whether Necrons are overpowered.  Let me start by saying that I am not convinced either way and even if they are overpowered, I have very serious doubts that they are really out of whack.

That said, I have an especially difficult time picturing how the anti-Necron tactics are supposed to work.  Judging from the discussions, I am far from the only one.  Clearly, there are many play styles which are resulting in a wide range of results, so I'm starting a thread to get more detailed discussion of the Necron related tactics in general and anti-Necron tactics in particular.

The idea here is to get explanations and descriptions sufficient to allow people to duplicate (or at least make a bona fide attempt to duplicate) the tactics.  Pictures and diagrams would really help a great deal.

To get things started, the deployment question I moved from the "Obelisks" thread:


I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with the Necron list.  I just can't see how a tight defensive deployment is a viable anti-Necron tactic for general use.

Necrons can limit the ability to castle up considerably by limiting depth of deployment and OW options.  They control 2 garrison points and can make then inaccessible for purposes of deployment by placing the objectives as far apart and as far from the deployment zone as possible.  That leaves Blitz garrisons and the normal 15cm deployment zone.  OW garrisons are limited because you can only fit so many formations within 15cm of the Blitz and they only guard so far from there.

Sure, if you're Marines or Eldar you can probably pack it in, but no horde army can.  Large numbers of models and limited depth of deployment means they don't have the option to do anything except troops on line.

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Neal

That's because you aren't thinking of the most brutal way possible to face an assault army.

You are thinking in terms of keeping your formations seperate, and distinct.

This is a mistake.

Ideally, against the Necron, you'd want to do a Corner deployment.  It's not nessesary, but it is handy to have your flanks guarded by the board edge.  It also would force the Necron to teleport into you, clustered up (an Ideal situation for an army with arty).

With this in mind, the most devestating defense I ever demonstrated was by simply intermingling my entire army.  My oponent was faced with trying to assault pretty much my entire army all at once.

In this instance, he went for the "drop the entire army in your face turn 1" option, to try to break it open.  It ended badly for him, as trying to do engage actions in the face of that overwatch actually got him nothing more than a lot of casualties and a couple of units that got broken before the assault actually started.

Or, if you have scouts, you can deploy them just enough ahead to act as a picket, forcing the Necron to kill them first, before they can engage the formations behind.

Either way, this serves one purpose:  Survive the first turn assaults.

As long as you can survive those first assaults, and keep your head about you on turn 2, you can shatter Necrons.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

agreed, and faster armies that can get to the monoliths early are certainly a threat.

the Necrons are a counter-intuative army in a lot of ways, both in playing them and fighting against them.

Many tactics that would be foolish, or suicidal against anyone else, work very well against the Necrons.  Other tactics which prove so effective against others, are generally poor choices when facing the Necron.

Air deployed formations for example.  Most formations that you load onto air transports are assault oriented.  In other words, they are EXACTLY the kind of formations you want to be able to meet the inital Necron attack.. not loafing in a transport off-board.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

Corey: If my opponent chose corner deployment and bunkered up, I probably wouldn't bother coming onto the board till turn 3, and just grab all the objectives and win. The last thing I'd do would be jump in his face in that case!

When I started playing necrons I won a lot, then people figured out that they could survive by bunkering, but then, and most importantly, I figured out how to beat the bunkering.

By teleporting further back behind terrain, and using obelisks, destroyers and the warbarque to to strip away scout screens, while outactivating the enemy it's perfectly possible to draw out all his activations and leave him bunkered up before any infantry enters the board. One clipping firefight by a phalanx later, they win and consolidate offboard through another portal. Repeat as required.

Just because you intermingle yourself doesn't mean I'll choose to declare you as such.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

My first post in ages and the delay between opening thread and getting back to computer (damn plastering) means my answer is stolen!
But yes, why assault a big ready to fight you horde? Why not wait a turn or two for that big mass to start stretching out towards the enemy objectives? Sure you will now be facing overwatch from a few formations, but that's better than the supporting fire of half the army.
Also intermingling ain't that hot. What stops me going turn one and hitting stuff like hydra squadrons, wiping them out int he battle and placing bm's right left and centre to the formations that were in a position to support but never get a chance to (as the defender is wiped out - though I could be mis-remembering the rules as it never came up in the games last night and my head is full of bread recipes).
Plus I reckon the necrons are the best blitz protecting army, if you have that portally thing back there.
As its an anti necron thread what would people do set up wise in response to two objective set ups?
The first being an isosceles? triangle with the two objectives 30cm from each other and apr 34cm (my maths may be mad here, years since I did any trig - basically a triangle with the point being the blitz and the two objectives being the other two corners). Here the teleporters are mutually supporting each other when they appear for any subsequent assaults.
The second is to place the two objectives as far away as possible from the blitz. Various ways of doing that, in response to what the enemy is. If say the blitz is in the centre one objective could be on either table edge. If its a mix of garrisons and other forces may as well stick em on the half way line to move them away from possible standard set up support, if its a slow army like ferals or siege put them 30cms from their table edge to stop them wandering into your half of the table. Or of course if the blitz is off to one side put them together on the far table edge. Regardless a situation where the army is hard pressed to cover everywhere and either concedes ground or splits up.

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Actually, no, I'm not thinking of avoiding intermingling.  I've faced both Eldar and IG in heavily intermingled castle formations.  I'm well aware that it is effectively invulnerable to CC or close FF due to the volume of support fire.

However, it's not nearly as good against clipping and Necrons are exceptional at clipping.

Pick a weak formation.  Don't declare intermingling.  The support formations don't get to countercharge so the attacker determines exactly what level of support fire to accept.

Once the first assault wins, all those support formations gain a BM for supporting a lost assault, so no prep is necessary.  The first assault formation is already in support position and with a 5cm consolidation they can support as deep as the second wave is willing to go.  Everything is ready to launch an immediate follow on assault.

I've peeled IG castles this way using both Marines and CSMs, and they are both are a lot worse at clipping than Necrons are.


Also, castling still does nothing to help an army like Orks or Chaos Cultists with lousy FF.  Support fire from them is nominal.  That doesn't help them defend against assaults to a substantial degree.

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Neal

sure.  Don't show up till turn 3... then all you have to do is break formations and they go away, never having had a chance to fight.

Been there, done that.  It doesn't make things easier for the Necron, it just makes thing tighter for them.  The longest I'd hold out is till turn 2, otherwise you leave yourself exactly zero room for mistakes or bad rolls.

And if they don't deploy in your face, then you have the opportunity to go after them in a more traditional fashion.  After all, you don't have to worry about them launching an overwhelming assault into your army.

If they want to go back behind terrain, even better.

They still have to move out from behind it if they want to "peel away" your formation, which opens them up to fire from overwatched formations.  You don't have to kill them, you just have to break them or reduce their firepower to keep them from succeeding.

So, Either they have decided to stick within 30cm you (so they can assault), or they are farther away, in which case the Necron have sacrificed their ability to launch a shock assault... Which is the thing to most fear.

Sure, you don't have to declare them intermingled... as long as you forgo any CC attacks that is, but if scouts are part of the outer edges of your intermingled army, then you are only going to be able to clip at best (provided you don't get torn apart on the way in).. and if you don't make a successful clip, you will find yourself sitting there, in the open.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

Not at all true. A monolith provides essentially a 60cm engagement range (monolith doubles 30cm, 15cm infantry move out of the portal, 15cm FF range) so can happily sit back and move in when its safe.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Zombocom's description of a typical Necron 'peel the onion' strategy is spot on, it takes apart a castling army like no other.

You can't castle against Necrons, that's handing the initative to them so they can take you apart at their leisure.

To stop a Necron army, you have to actively seek and destroy their portals (Monoliths). Breaking them is worse than leaving them alone as they can most likely come back the following turn (without Blast Markers, naturally) in any location they choose, so you have to seek them out actively and hit them as hard as you possibly can.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Statements like this are why I started this thread.  This is so alien it's like we're not playing the same game.

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Neal

thus burning one of your activations for no real benefit, AND Still not changing the fact that anything coming out of the portal will be subject to overwatch.

It's not going to BE safe unless you move, which exposes you to Overwatch fire... or if you teleport to within 30cm.

Either way, 60cm, or 30cm, it's still within artillery range, which most races have access to.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

I completely agree with Neal. Of course I'm willing to give up a couple of extra macro CC attacks to clip the enemy and not take any supporting fire. I couldn't imagine why I would possibly want to get closer and take an entire army's worth of supporting fire.

Necrons excel at clipping, it's the number 1 tactic for them.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

No real benefit? A 60cm engagement range is a huge benefit, covering a huge chunk of the board! What else is a single monolith going to do, lay a BM?

Under the older versions of the list, monoliths were all about engagements. These days they're best used to provide flexibility in portal positions.

I very rarely throw all my monoliths right in the enemy's face anymore - that's asking to lose against an opponent who knows what they're doing. Instead, by sitting back and forcing them to split up to go for objectives, while drawing out activations I can take them apart at my ease, while keeping my troops safely offboard for most of the game.

Sure castling works against necrons at first, but not forever. Once you've played against a castle a few times it's not that hard to work out how to take them apart. Not to mention that castling up provides the ultimate possibility for a c'tan bomb.

So what if artillery shoots a lone monolith? One artillery barrage has at best a 1/8 chance of killing a solo monolith, and then 7/8 times the monolith breaks and moves forward, still able to use its portal.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Why on earth would you want to use the Necron's CC abilities if you could clip the hell out of the castle and then consolidate back into another portal so that you can't be counter-attacked???


Seriously, I can't remember the last time Zombocom used CC as a main component of his battleplan.

Necrons are an army that win by clipping, and by Firefighting, not by directly engaging the main strength of the enemy!

The Necrons haven't been able to engage the main strength of the enemy castle ever since the Monolith was limited in its number of FF attacks (so that it can no longer apply 40 hits on an enemy formation*).


If you castle up on overwatch and refuse to move, against a Necron player who knows what he's doing, you will lose.


* Yes we had that happen once. Four monoliths & a Necron Warrior formation versus 20 stands of Guardsmen and a few Thudd guns. Everything Imperial died.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter