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Necron 4.4.1

Soren

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:22 pm

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Glad to hear this. Finally the necron players listened to reason

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:34 pm

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Question: did you use the price breakdown of 125 for the first monolith, 65 for each subsequent one, 35 for the Obelisks?

With only two games played, perhaps some more playtesting is in order? I mean that in the classic sense of waiting a year or so and having many dozen games played and lots of feedback from lots of people.

Here is my thinking:
When you buy a Supreme Commander you are going to spend 10% of your points on it (a significant amount). Either that SC is off the board and not being used (a benefit to the Necron player's opponent) or it is on the board and vulnerable.

Besides, I don't see how you can draw that conclusion without playing some games WITH the SC to compare. I'm not suggesting you're wrong, just that the changes Corey put into place be given an opportunity to succeed or fail.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:41 pm

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I think Zombo summed it up well last night:

- Most army lists get a SC for 50 points (Except Orks, because it's a counterweight to their poor Init rating, and Chaos, because they're... uh... noone really knows

)

- Necrons get a SC for 50pts (Warbarque upgrade).

Most armies just get SC out of that.

Necrons get SC and TWO pips of strategy rating (A huge difference).

That's just too cheap for what they're getting...

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Pulsar

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:45 pm

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if anyone would like to know the list i used:

Avatar Total: free

Wraithgate Total: ?50

Aspect Warrior Warhost (300)
(4 Fire dragons and 4 Howling Banshees)
+ 2 Exarchs Total: 350

Aspect Warrior Warhost (300)
(4 Dire Avengers and 4 Striking Scorpions)
+ 4 Wave Serpents (200)
+ Autarch (75)
+ Exarch (25) Total: 600

Guardian Warhost (150)
+ 3 Wraithguard units (150)
+ 3 Wrathlords (175) Total: 475

5 Falcons Total: 250

Storm Serpent Total: 250

1 Voidspinner Total: 250

3 Night Spinners Total: 175

Pheonix Bomber Total: 400

Vampire Raider Total: 200
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Grand Total: 3000

i Think that Necrons don't need SR3, +1 inititive is good enough, if they do have it, it would greatly increase the the ablity of necron to do the first activation win.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:47 pm

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You are forgetting that the army was a 3+ SR since the dawn of time. Corey modified it to take away two pips when the SC is not around or dead.

FYI When I played against ePilgrim (prior to the Monolith price changes) he fielded no SC and won. So with three data points to work with, the common denominator for affecting a balanced Necron list is not the SC but the Monolith pricing.

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zombocom

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:24 pm

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I understand that it was dropped from 3 to 1, I used to play under the previous versions of the lists too.

One of the features of the necrons is that they appear out of nowhere. When you combine this with a decent strategy rating it means they get a decent chance to get the jump on a lot of armies, and that's not all that fair. I think SR 1 is a decent downside for the necrons, and neatly counterballances the bonuses of the list. At SR 1 necrons are basically now pretty ballanced I think, though obviously a lot more playtesting is required!

At SR3 they're not. I have played with a supreme commander, and the difference is huge. To be honest, it's probably not just the SR3 that makes the difference, it's that I don't have a harvester. Abbatoirs are hugely overpriced. They're just not worth 750 points by any stretch of the imagination. If I have a 300/350 point SC I don't have a 750 point harvester, so I end up with another 400-450 points to spend on troops, which is frankly a much more effective way to spend the points.

But yes, the games I've played with an SC have been some of the worst games of epic I've ever played. I've never failed to win the game on turn 1.

I think I'm going to start playtesting with an SC but still SR1, and see how that goes, to see if the SR is really the problem, or whether it's just the extra points that a SC frees up.

Moscovian: Yes, I used that price breakdown.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:48 pm

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Z, I understand your concern. It's just that there have been ZERO games played WITH a Supreme Commander under the new Monolith pricing structure. It is impossible for anyone to make an accurate conclusion without having games played with one at 3+SR with the new Monolith pricing.

By giving the Necron a 1+SR there is still a chance of them winning the first activation (and thus retaining and getting two attacks). If that is all it takes to win with the army list we might as well rip it up and start from scratch.

I completely disagree that the Harvesters aren't worth their points. They seriously rock! The Orb is a killing machine and I've actually been hounding Corey to reduce it to 9BP. The Abattoir's infiltrate plus portal makes it tremendously useful. The problem with the larger harvesters is using them in small games (3000 points, which seems to be your preferred range). Put them in a 4000-5000 point game and you'll see the difference. The harvesters suffer the same way Warlord titans suffer in small point games - they eat activations/points.

I will be playing the Necron soon as well. I've got some new people to play Epic with close by thanks to StudderingDave (hello Dave!). That combined with the Raiders release will no doubt generate a lot of people playing.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:52 pm

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This:

It's just that there have been ZERO games played WITH a Supreme Commander under the new Monolith pricing structure. It is impossible for anyone to make an accurate conclusion without having games played with one at 3+SR with the new Monolith pricing.

Seems to be put to flight by:

But yes, the games I've played with an SC have been some of the worst games of epic I've ever played. I've never failed to win the game on turn 1.

I find it hard to think that the monolith pricing change has had such a dramatic change so as to change Zombo's reported experience.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:05 pm

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Out of 8 turns, how many times did the Necrons win their Strategy Roll? Were the Turn 1 SRs won or not? Could a Turn 1 roll have off-balanced these particular games THAT MUCH? If so, the problem is STILL not the Supreme Commander but the army as a whole.

I find it hard to think that the monolith pricing change has had such a dramatic change so as to change Zombo's reported experience.

Then think harder. Monoliths are the backbone to the army and by almost doubling their base cost you've cut deeply into the number of activations the army is capable of generating. It isn't just raw points either; nobody wants to spend 125 points on a single unit just to have it wiped out, so there is a tactical obligation to reinforce it, costing you even more points. Z even emphasized in his posting the uncharacteristically low activation count.

Once again I'm not saying it doesn't need changing. What I am saying is that drawing a conlusion on the SR without enough data points is ridiculous.

Also, all of this fails to point out the changes to the Destroyers as well; a small but mentionable nerf.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:15 pm

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Then think harder.

In the face of such snappy condecension, perhaps I should refuse to think at all.

It's worth pointing out that Zombo's being saying the variable strategy rating has been broken for months.

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zombocom

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:20 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569

(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,16:05)

QUOTE

Out of 8 turns, how many times did the Necrons win their Strategy Roll? ?Were the Turn 1 SRs won or not? Could a Turn 1 roll have off-balanced these particular games THAT MUCH? ?If so, the problem is STILL not the Supreme Commander but the army as a whole.

I won the SR roll 2 or 3 times in total I think, though I wasn't in a killer position for any of them.

I think with the mono nerfs (mostly the flux arc nerfs) it's a lot harder to do the first turn splat of doom. Not impossible to do it, but it's not an autowin anymore if you get first activation, which it used to be.

So yes, the mono changes have had an effect on the SR issue, but I do still think it's an issue, espectially since it's a "free" bonus on top of the already decent SR reroll. Perhaps if the SR rating improvement was instead of the reroll?

(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,16:05)

QUOTE

Also, all of this fails to point out the changes to the Destroyers as well; a small but mentionable nerf.

Yup, the destroyers being 25cm move was a definate good nerf for me, much harder to get them into a good position without doubling. Heavy destroyers seem more worthwhile now at AT3+, and at 375 points (400 with lord) it really hurt when the formation got swatted down. Ouch.

Destroyers are far more ballanced now.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:28 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2008,11:15)

QUOTE

Then think harder. ?

In the face of such snappy condecension, perhaps I should refuse to think at all.

Well, you could run for political office then.

Seriously, I don't understand how you can't agree with me that two games does not constitute enough playtesting to change the SR, especially in light of:
1. Both games did not include a Supreme Commander
2. Both games were losses for the Necrons

I wasn't there, so many y'all can illuminate me on the Strategy Rolls for the games.

But you would need at least 2 games with a Supreme Commander, preferably against the same opponents/lists, to start coming close to being able to make the conclusion that you have made.

Next you'll be telling me there is global warming. ?If you excuse me now, I need to go pump water out of my basement.

EDIT: Thanks, Zombo. To me the SC re-roll isn't nearly as important with the Necrons as with other armies (like IG) because of their great initiative.

You know, I totally forgot the to mention the +2 extra attacks change to the Monoliths. Thanks! There is yet another part to all this that points away from the SC and to the list changes.

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zombocom

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:37 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,15:48)

QUOTE

The Abattoir's infiltrate plus portal makes it tremendously useful.

(Moscovian @ Earlier in this thread)

QUOTE

Most people don't field it simply because it doesn't compare with the Orb. ?The fact that it has to get into CC to be really useful is a problem even with infiltrator.

You've certainly changed your tune with regards to the Abbatoir!

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zombocom

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:40 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,16:28)

QUOTE

EDIT: Thanks, Zombo. ?To me the SC re-roll isn't nearly as important with the Necrons as with other armies (like IG) because of their great initiative. ?

While that is true, it's of the same importance it is to marines.

For marines, to upgrade a normal commander to Supreme Commander costs 50 points.

Ditto for Necrons (warbarque), but it also includes a free +2 SR.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necron 4.4.1

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:35 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Zombo, I wasn't changing tunes, just the key. ?

?I was comparing one Harvester against another in the first quote and comparing the usefulness of the Abattoir as compared to the rest of the army in the second. ?If I have to choose between the two, I'll take the Orb every time and so would any sane person. ?Hmmm, either stay in one place and get a sustained shot of either TK(D6) or 12BP, OR be forced to maneuver around the board to get into CC range. ?You are taking my quotes out of context.

Looking at the Abattoir compared to the rest of the list, though, it is awesome. ?Living Metal, Infiltrate, great CC attacks, fearless, and a Portal to boot! ? The only thing missing from it is the special rule that requires the Necron player to make the OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM noise as you gleefully remove your opponent's units.

EDIT: And you keep bringing up the ADDING of 2 pips to the SR, but it isn't. The Variable Strategy Rating was a nerf on the list by allowing an opponent to lower the Necron SR by killing the SC (or by the player just not bringing one).

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