Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 12  Next

Necrons 4.3

 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
I could give quick overviews of them, but I didn't take detailed notes.

I will, however, be playing with them on saturday, and will do a full report.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD

(nealhunt @ Nov. 09 2007,13:05)
QUOTE
Nah.  What encourages Monolith popcorn armies is that pairing them with Obelisks is pointless.

Obelisks linked to Monoliths lose their speed advantage because they can't run away from the Mono, and they lose their range advantage because the Monolith needs to be close to the enemy for both the portal and to use FF.

Supposedly, they gain value by functioning as a "meat shield" for the Monolith, but that doesn't make sense.  Obelisk costs 50 points to guard a 75 point unit.  That's not much "meat shield" value to begin with.  Then add in that the Obelisk has half the durability and it's just silly to think it gains any value from that role at all.  There is no benefit.

You pay 50 points per Obelisk in their own homogenous formation where all their abilities can be used to the max compared to 50 points per Obelisk with Monliths where their abilities are slashed and their value as a screen is highly dubious.

You pay 50 points for an Obelisk that is a poor ablative shield for a Monolith, compared to paying 75 points for an entirely new, separate Monolith.

Either way you look at it, there is an internal balance problem with Obelisks.  Using them with Monoliths is simply inferior.

Popcorn Monoliths happen because it's the only sensible choice.  You must have portals.  That means you either buy lots of portals or you guard them.  Guarding them is throwing points away.  That only leaves buying lots of them.

It's a nice theory, but utterly unsupported in any game I have seen or played myself.

Solo Monolith's die fast and ugly.

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Actually, in the game I played last week one monolith survived 15 hits....

That's unlikely, obviously, but I've found that in general running monoliths on their own is definately the way to go.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD

(nealhunt @ Nov. 09 2007,11:43)
QUOTE
If a unit is too powerful en masse, that usually means it's just plain too powerful (or cheap) and taking it in lesser numbers is just masking the problem.

how do you figure that?

There are many units that would be ridiculous En Masse that are perfectly fine in smaller numbers.

Leman Russ Vanquishers
Eldar Cobras
Ork Nobs (I think it's the nobs)
Avatar
Terminators (and you can actually have a full army of them!)
Obliterators

etc.

And I'll repeat.  I don't care if a unit in this list makes everyone warm and fuzzy... what I care about is if they LIST balances in actual play against other lists.   If it does than it doesn't matter how ugly a formation or unit may be.

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

(corey3750 @ Nov. 08 2007,14:23)
QUOTE
Solo Monolith's die fast and ugly.

Does that mean you would support a points increase for them to help balance the unit?

What if solo monoliths were increased to 100 but the supporting Obelisks were decreased to 40 points each?

1M+3O would be 225 points under the current rules and 220 points with this proposal.  This would discourage solo monolith use, encourage obelisk reinforcement (since they are discounted), and satisfy several arguments at once without completely unbalancing the Monotith formation.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
A Terminator-only army ain't all that hot.

None of the others can be taken in quite the proliferation as is afforded to Monoliths.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 09 2007,14:30)
QUOTE
A Terminator-only army ain't all that hot.

None of the others can be taken in quite the proliferation as is afforded to Monoliths.

Actually, an all terminator army can be as devastating as the Necrons if you are patient :)

And you can take large numbers of Cobras if you really want to.

my point was that the others aren't overwhelming because you CAN'T take them en Masse.

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD

(Moscovian @ Nov. 09 2007,14:29)
QUOTE
Does that mean you would support a points increase for them to help balance the unit?

What if solo monoliths were increased to 100 but the supporting Obelisks were decreased to 40 points each?

1M+3O would be 225 points under the current rules and 220 points with this proposal.  This would discourage solo monolith use, encourage obelisk reinforcement (since they are discounted), and satisfy several arguments at once without completely unbalancing the Monotith formation.

I don't think points increase are the answer.

leaving no option for Solo Monoliths might be.

But again... I need actual play data before I start monkeying around with things. :)

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:01 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
No option for solo monoliths? That's a joke, right?

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
It must be a joke, because this is a pretty big joke too:

Actually, an all terminator army can be as devastating as the Necrons if you are patient


An all Terminator army can never approach the kind of sustained intensity of attack that a Necron army can manage.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
You could always do a Monolith and 3 Obelisks, mandatory Obelisks, at 200 points. That's about a 16% price-break on the obelisks compared to in their own formation (If you assume the Monolith is worth 75 points, anyway. An even -bigger- price break if the monolith is worth more). No more popcorn formations. Cheaper obelisks to keep the monolith alive. Everybody wins! Well, except the people who want to field 12 solo monoliths. But we don't care about them, do we?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Obelisks should not be mandatory.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:31 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(corey3750 @ Nov. 08 2007,19:28)
QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Nov. 09 2007,11:43)
QUOTE
If a unit is too powerful en masse, that usually means it's just plain too powerful (or cheap) and taking it in lesser numbers is just masking the problem.

how do you figure that?

There are many units that would be ridiculous En Masse that are perfectly fine in smaller numbers.

Leman Russ Vanquishers
Eldar Cobras
Ork Nobs (I think it's the nobs)
Avatar
Terminators (and you can actually have a full army of them!)
Obliterators

Those are limited for flavor reasons (at least the ones that are limited), not balance.

In contrast, the units that I know of which were limited for balance reasons almost always continue to be problematic.  The internal balance issues persist, even if the army as a whole is balanced against other lists.  Limiting the number just means people max out on the unbalanced units up to the limit before they move on to choosing something less powerful.

There are only a few reasons that well-balanced units don't scale linearly or very nearly so - BP weapons because of the BP table, formations which cross the 3-4 unit size because of the break point of killing one unit, and  highly specialized units that strain the game mechanics in larger quantities (like larger WEs).

And I'll repeat.  I don't care if a unit in this list makes everyone warm and fuzzy... what I care about is if they LIST balances in actual play against other lists.   If it does than it doesn't matter how ugly a formation or unit may be.


You have to have internal balance as well, Corey.

The IG list is balanced overall, but no one takes Baneblade companies because Russ are a better buy.  SM tourney lists have degenerated into all being "multi-thawk, multi-warhound" cookie cutter lists.  Baneblade-free IG lists and Thawk-hound SM lists are balanced against other tournament armies but that doesn't mean the underlying issues leading to those choices are not a problem.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
Why not? Given the mindless conformity and massed identical legion style of the Necrons I think mandatory unit-size for at least a few things seems perfectly reasonable. What penalty is associated with making them mandatory that makes you not like them? Just to  satisfy my morbid curiosity (Since I doubt Corey would actually make them mandatory at present anyway, though I can't recall him ever fielding a monolith without them).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 12  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net