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Necrons 4.3

corey3750

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:49 pm

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Synchronized portals: Can a Necron force use this in a consolidation move? As the rule is written, the answer would be "yes" as long as the formation is within 15cm of the exit portal. You might make the case that "part of any activation that allows movement" would mean that it only applies if the Necron formation is activated but it could still be used after an offensive attack. Obviously, it would only be a 5cm exit, but it could be useful.

Teleport 2 Monoliths near one target and another near a second target. Activation 1: Assault out of one Monolith portal with a Phalanx (or whatever), consolidate into the second portal, exit the third. Activation 2: Assault with the third Monolith, with the Phalanx/whatever in support.

On a less offense-oriented note, it could also be used as a simple withdrawal technique to keep the Phalanx from being vulnerable to a counterstrike. Only the Fearless/LM/Gaus Flux Monoliths would be left.

Yes, you can use it as part of a consolidation move. Well spotted

Of course, as you point out here, it would take up the use of 3 portals to pull it off, but you can do a hit and run that way. I haven't seen anyone try it yet to see if it's even tactically feasible.

Destroyer LV: This could work. It would, however, require changing the Portal rules to accomodate LVs.
It works just like the Webway portal that covers LVs, but I failed to mention that in the list because there weren't any at the time. I'll make that little adjustment

Pylon: Not claiming objectives would be okay. No ZoC opens up the door for some weirdness. Any formation, no matter the size, could pull the old Scout/ZoC trick against a Pylon and prevent it from attacking. I can think of lots of cases where that would be more than worth it, even at the risk of the Pylon's Flux Arc attack. For a formation down to just 1-2 units, that Guass Flux Arc is not a big deal.

well, even if it has a ZoC you can still do the Scout trick on it. But I don't have a problem with restoring the ZoC, I just thought it a bit of harmless flavor.

C'Tan: Is the critical really supposed to be an automatic MW hit with a 3d6 radius? That is a big, honking radius of damage. In fact, it's so much damage that I think I'd be rooting for the enemy to get a critical so I could go all "death blossom" on them. That's not quite as good as the former Baneblade rampage critical, but it's not exactly a poor result for the C'Tan. If you were reasonably close to the enemy, a critical would more than compensate for the 300 point loss of the C'Tan.

It's a potential big one. Though on average you are going to get 10-12 cm, which is ugly. I hadn't really looked at it that way much, but yes, it's supposed to be extremely costly to take out a C'Tan in close combat. It's a much better experience to take it out at range.

And you missed something in the cost analysis. If you lose the C'tan the strategy rating of your army drops by 2. That can hurt a lot more than the loss would without the variable strategy rating.

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corey3750

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:52 pm

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(nealhunt @ Oct. 31 2007,14:41)

QUOTE

(corey3750 @ Oct. 30 2007,18:46)

QUOTE

the ONLY difference between the two rules is what happens in the end phase.

That "ONLY difference" in the end phase is the source of the entire problem.

how can it be the source of the entire problem.

Use the identical mechanic whenever an on-board formation is removing blast markers.

It's just that simple.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:55 pm

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Corey, if you think the popcorn Monolith army is that big of a deal then increase the cost of the Monolith to 100 points. There certainly isn't a shortage of people who think the Monoliths are underpriced anyway.

Nothing discourages a popcorn army more than bumping the cost of the favored unit. Do this and you might be able to balance the list without changing the initiatives.

BTW what are you going to do with the Destroyers then? The 4.3 list shows the Destroyers the same with two shots but the Heavy Destroyers down to one shot. From that I got the impression you were on the way to cutting their firepower in half but maybe it was just a typo.

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tv1013

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:00 pm

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Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:08 pm
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(corey3750 @ Oct. 30 2007,19:52)

QUOTE

Use the identical mechanic whenever an on-board formation is removing blast markers.

It's just that simple.

So a Necron Phalanx consisting of only 6 Warrior stands takes 3 casualties, breaks and phases out. ?

At the end of my turn, I need a 3+ to rally them, and roll a 4. ?I can now either restore 2 Warrior stands, 1 Warrior stand and a BM, or 2 BM.

2nd scenario: ?a formation of 6 Warriors comes under fire, and takes a casualty. ?They can also attempt to regroup, and either remove 1 BM, or restore the lost stand.

But above all, you HAVE to have at least one blast marker to regroup, and in turn, use the "void shield effect."

Presto?

I'm going to feel real stupid if I get this wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to the Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers, I forgot they would need to be rebased one to a stand. Figures I just finished basing them too. Would the Destroyer Lord be its own stand, then? Instead of being an upgrade on a stand?

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 pm

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In scenario #1 you would not be able to regenerate any Necrons because all the BMs are going to be removed when they rally.

Scenario #2 sound about right. But the mere fact that yet aother person is not sure begs for a clarification on the list itself. Once it is defined in writing I don't think it will be difficult to follow, regardless of whether you think it is like the void shields or not.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:14 pm

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(tv1013 @ Oct. 30 2007,15:00)

QUOTE

In regards to the Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers, I forgot they would need to be rebased one to a stand. ?Figures I just finished basing them too. ?Would the Destroyer Lord be its own stand, then? ?Instead of being an upgrade on a stand?

Yeah I pointed that out too but it was not answered... by anybody. The LV suggestion I must point out comes from people who don't have models to rebase. :glare:

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tv1013

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:22 pm

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(Moscovian @ Oct. 30 2007,20:11)

QUOTE

In scenario #1 you would not be able to regenerate any Necrons because all the BMs are going to be removed when they rally. ?

Scenario #2 sound about right. ?But the mere fact that yet aother person is not sure begs for a clarification on the list itself. ?Once it is defined in writing I don't think it will be difficult to follow, regardless of whether you think it is like the void shields or not.

For #1, I disagree, because of this:

"A broken formation that rallies is no longer broken. It counts as having as many Blast markers as units, half of which will be removed for passing the Rally test."

I guess we'll wait and see.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm starting to lean back the other way about Destroyers, since:

A) Rebasing isn't fun
B) Maybe Heavy Destroyers putting out 12 AT4 shots was a bit excessive, in hindsight.

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corey3750

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:26 pm

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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
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Sure, increase the cost of the monolith, and make it essential to take solo monoliths instead of full formations. The way I see it, increasing the prices encourages a move toward popcorn instead of discouraging it.

Right now we have 2 games with this, one win, one loss. A larger sample is needed before we revisit this issue.

BTW what are you going to do with the Destroyers then? The 4.3 list shows the Destroyers the same with two shots but the Heavy Destroyers down to one shot. From that I got the impression you were on the way to cutting their firepower in half but maybe it was just a typo.

Did you see the post I put in reply to your list of issues/questions? I put my thoughts on what I was trying to do in there.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:33 pm

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From 4.3 list, Special Rule 1.1.3->
The formation will roll to rally in the end phase and lose all blast markers if it succeeds.
You may have missed it.

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corey3750

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:33 pm

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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
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So a Necron Phalanx consisting of only 6 Warrior stands takes 3 casualties, breaks and phases out.

At the end of my turn, I need a 3+ to rally them, and roll a 4. I can now either restore 2 Warrior stands, 1 Warrior stand and a BM, or 2 BM.

No. It states that it only formation on the board can regenerate units.

2nd scenario: a formation of 6 Warriors comes under fire, and takes a casualty. They can also attempt to regroup, and either remove 1 BM, or restore the lost stand.

But above all, you HAVE to have at least one blast marker to regroup, and in turn, use the "void shield effect."

depends on the situation.

In the end of the turn, you remove half the BM, +1 per leader if you make a rally check. In this case it's fixed, and only works if you have Blast markers. If this is the situation you were making your example on, you are completely correct.

If you take a marshal or Hold action, you roll 2d6 and take the better of the two (if I recall correctly), and add +1 for every leader. In this case the amount is variable based on the die roll.

Perhaps I just need to write it out as an entire page so I can cover every possible variation.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:34 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(corey3750 @ Oct. 30 2007,19:52)

QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Oct. 31 2007,14:41)

QUOTE

(corey3750 @ Oct. 30 2007,18:46)

QUOTE

the ONLY difference between the two rules is what happens in the end phase.

That "ONLY difference" in the end phase is the source of the entire problem.

how can it be the source of the entire problem.

Use the identical mechanic whenever an on-board formation is removing blast markers.

It's just that simple.

If you really think it's clear and simple and not counter-intuitive, then please explain why a forum full of grognards with collectively hundreds of years of experience interpretting scores of rulesets can't figure it out.

Why can a formation with a leader and 1 BM rally and repair a unit, while a formation with a leader and 0 BMs gets nothing in the end phase? It's counter-intuitive. Having BMs is supposed to be a bad thing, not a benefit.

That's why people are doing back flips and twists to come up with bizarro interpretations.

That's why it needs to be clarified.

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hiddenevil

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:44 pm

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why dont we just add to the bottom of the rule "note: necron formations can attempt to repair units even when they have no blast markers"

this way there is no arguing over tiny rules, and it would seem logical, this way a formation can repair under any circumstance if its not broken. makes things simple

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corey3750

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:46 pm

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(nealhunt @ Oct. 31 2007,15:34)

QUOTE

it's counter-intuitive to think you'd be rolling a rally check in the end phase if you have no blast markers!!!

When have you EVER in any section of any part of Epic found where you'd make an end of turn rally roll without blast makers?! You of all people should know that! :angry:

Do I have to re-write the rulebook for the game while I'm doing list updates so I can include the whole thing in the list? Write out a Necron rule and include the sections of the rulebook that tell you how that phase of the game works and each function in it to avoid confusion? :glare:

The rules written here are predicated on the belief that the reader knows and understands the rules of the game, and serve only to show you how they act to supplement or work in exception to those rules.

But I'll tell you what, feel free to write up the rule and post it here how YOU think it should be written.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:53 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Corey, Neal is right. ?You don't need a full page of examples. ?If you can't figure out a way to clarify it succinctly just run it past some folks out here and we'll critically rewrite it to get the length of the decription down. ?No big deal.
---
Destroyers
I've been avoiding that because Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers just don't fit the definition of a light vehicle.

Here's the thing, I want the formation to be roughly an equivalent of a Predator squad. ?So if you take 4 Heavy Destroyers and 2 Destroyers you have roughly the same firepower as a squad of Predators. ?A little less range, and a different vulnerability, but basically the same in damage potential. ?

Of course if you want to go pure Destroyers you get a formation specialized to sweep infantry... kind of like Dark Reapers, but with 60% of the range and about 70% of the shots in exchange for a little better hitting ability

I read this and didn't get much out of it in the way of an answer. ? The brief analysis you did doesn't do the power of the Destroyers justice. ?They are fast skimmers that have the fighting capacity of Predators and can regenerate, travel through portals, and can claim all sorts of cover because they are infantry. ?Comparing them to Dark Reapers is ridiculous since Reapers have a move of 15cm and get 2 x AP5+. ?Destroyers have double their move base, get 2xAP4 or AT6+ (increasing their flexibility) , the same firefight, but never have to worry about a CC assault since they are skimmers. ? ?The speed alone makes up for the range difference. ?You can also swap them out for Heavy Destroyers and their big AT guns.

EDIT: I forgot. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers also get an armor of 4+ compared to Reapers at 5+.

Now you know my beef is not with them being infantry but it should nonetheless be listed on its list of benefits. ?You also said you don't want them to be LVs but you seem to be hesitant to reduce their fighting capacity which IMO is a mistake. ?

It seems that you are acknowledging that they are too much for too little. ?So the basics are:
* Something has to change.
* You don't want them to be LVs.
*Changing to LV status means people with existing armies get the grand adventure of re-basing their models.
* AVs is way out.
* They have all the benefits of Predators and Dark Reapers and only one liability (they are AP which makes them slightly easier to hit on template weapons).

Cut their weaponry in half, drop their price to 300 points, and they will STILL be a bargain purchase.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Necrons 4.3

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:58 pm

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Why can't we just put a simple line in the rules saying, "Only formations on board with BMs can regenerate."? Tack it onto the existing rule and you've clarified it. Of course people may still disagree with it claiming it is counter-intuitive (which I can see), but at least it would take the confusion out of the whole thing.

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