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Necrons v4.4 thoughts
zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:13 pm 
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Hena: I really don't follow. Just because odd points may add up to standard ones, how is that min-maxing?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Hena equates non-25pt increments with Warhammer 40k, and Warhammer 40k with min-maxing.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:31 pm 
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Whu? That makes no sense at all.

If all units cost 25 points there would be a lot more combinations possible than if all units cost 83 points. The increments make no difference to the number of combinations, the absolute value of the number does.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Lets imagine two simple army lists, each with four possible units, and a 100 point game...

First, an army list with four unit options of 25 points each.

In a 100 point game there are (4x4x4x4)=256 possible combinations of units.

Second, a list with 2 40 point units and 2 20 point units

Now there are 3 possible types of combinations to fill the full 100 points (40 + 40 + 20), (40 + 20 + 20 + 20) and (20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20).

so the total number of combinations is (2^3) + (2^4) + (2^5) = 8+16+32 = 56



It seems the list with the non standard 25 points costs has far less combinations available.


EDIT:

I realise this maths differenciates between (A A B) and (A B A) as seperate options.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:50 pm 
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Can we move this topic to a more appropriate thread such as this one.  :devil:

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:34 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 07 2008,13:50)
QUOTE
Can we move this topic to a more appropriate thread such as this one. ?:devil:

I salute your top 10 list!

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Crusher Bob
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:29 am 
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How about something like this:

Change Phalanx (~300 points)
8 Necron warriors w/ Necron Lord
Upgrades:
Upgrade 2 warriors to immortals +25 points
Add 1 Pariah for ?? points
Add 2 Wraiths + 75 points
Add 0-3  Tomb spiders 75 points each

Reasoning:  Bare Phalanxs feel a bit weak, most people seem to be buying at least some upgrades for every Phalanx they buy.  The basic Phalanx should not be so weak as to require upgrades

Monolith formation (~250 points)
4 monoliths
Change gauss flux arcs to max +3 hits, or just (EA +2)

Reasoning:
Many single monolith formations leads to all sorts of problems, the Necron can threaten everywhere on the board at once by scattering their Monoliths, of blast a formation into oblivion by supporting an assault with all of them together.  And at the end of the turn, broken monoliths phase out, rally and allow the Necron to portal to a different place on the board.

The 4 monolith formation provides some utility by itself and plenty of active portals, but greatly reduces the multi-activation horde Necron army.

So a sample 3000 points list might look like:
Phalanx x3
Monoliths x2
Pylon x2
C'tan
Tomb complex
Destroyers
Flayed Ones x2

With 175 points left over for upgrades and 11 Activations.

This limits both the number of activations that Necron get and reduces the amount of the board that they can threaten at once, since the Monolith formations can only threaten a much smaller area of the board, and are much less likely to break and teleport to a new location at the start of every turn.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:56 am 
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Bob: I don't like it.

Unupgraded phalanxes are very good. I always take one, since they're a cheap, thowaway formation that is better in a firefight than a marine tactical formation (thanks to the lord's extra attack).
Wraiths aren't worth 75 points (neither are tomb spiders actually, but never mind...)
4 monos is too many in one formation, the necron will have no hope of winning, or a ridiculous number of monos on the baord.
Upgrading warriors to immortals? Clunky.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:51 am 
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Crusher, something like that might be interesting for a variant list IMO and not appropriate for this list.  I think we should be looking at tweaks, not massive design overhauls.  That's just me though.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:29 pm 
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With the Monolith unit changes proposed, does this base them on their current stats (with change to the Bonus FF attacks of course)?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:53 pm 
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If you are referring to the point cost change proposal I put out, the Monoliths would remain largely unchanged.  If you adopt the changes including the addition of multiple monoliths in a single formation, E&C's thoughts on a fixed number of FF attacks might be a good way to go (+2EA each).  Although I am not sure what is more offensive to players: the idea of 9 FF attacks from three monoliths regardless of who their attacking, or up to 18 FF attacks that would be easy to work out in small assaults and very difficult to work out in larger ones (overlapping areas and such).

If you stick with lone monoliths and obelisk upgrades and just institute the point changes then I'd be fine either way.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:43 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 08 2008,12:53)
QUOTE
If you are referring to the point cost change proposal I put out, the Monoliths would remain largely unchanged. ?If you adopt the changes including the addition of multiple monoliths in a single formation, E&C's thoughts on a fixed number of FF attacks might be a good way to go (+2EA each). ?Although I am not sure what is more offensive to players: the idea of 9 FF attacks from three monoliths regardless of who their attacking, or up to 18 FF attacks that would be easy to work out in small assaults and very difficult to work out in larger ones (overlapping areas and such).

If you stick with lone monoliths and obelisk upgrades and just institute the point changes then I'd be fine either way.

Just wanted to clarify :)

I would love to see the idea tested out!

I was close to saying "screw it, take out Fearless on the Monoliths"  :devil:

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Zombocom mentioned some games coming up where he'd give it a spin and I locked in ePilgrim for Friday 2-22 so that'll be another two games.  I have a game day scheduled before that (next week) but I'm not sure if Necrons are on the menu.  I'll try.

Corey, any idea what you would like to try in terms of the FF?  3 attacks each (e.g. FF 5+ +2 extra attacks)?  Or up-to-six attacks each (max 6 per Monolith)?  If it is the latter, would the monolith FF attacks overlap or would it just be a 'pool' of FF hits?

Ex. 20 Ork Boyz are in range of a formation of three monoliths.  The first monolith reaches all twenty Boyz but the remaining two monoliths can only reach 4 Boyz (of which two are the same Boyz).  How would I allocate hits on this?!

The more I think about it the fixed number is the way to go but I want your input first.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:19 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 08 2008,13:51)
QUOTE
Zombocom mentioned some games coming up where he'd give it a spin and I locked in ePilgrim for Friday 2-22 so that'll be another two games. ?I have a game day scheduled before that (next week) but I'm not sure if Necrons are on the menu. ?I'll try.

Corey, any idea what you would like to try in terms of the FF? ?3 attacks each (e.g. FF 5+ +2 extra attacks)? ?Or up-to-six attacks each (max 6 per Monolith)? ?If it is the latter, would the monolith FF attacks overlap or would it just be a 'pool' of FF hits?

Ex. 20 Ork Boyz are in range of a formation of three monoliths. ?The first monolith reaches all twenty Boyz but the remaining two monoliths can only reach 4 Boyz (of which two are the same Boyz). ?How would I allocate hits on this?!

The more I think about it the fixed number is the way to go but I want your input first.

It would have to be a fixed number to avoid the confusion.

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