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Necrons v4.4 thoughts
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:19 am 
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(Chroma @ Jan. 28 2008,19:16)
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Pylons range changed to 75cm and then you can actually enter the board.

They can still teleport anywhere they want and two Pylons at 75cm can *still* cover the entire battlefield with overlapping fields of fire.

Yup, that is why I said: Drop Pylon. Give Necrons some Airdefence-Stelae (AA-Obelisk) or something.


But then again, it does not matter. I shall not make necrons before living metal and pylons are dropped and phase out cant be used as redeployment. And because they are banned from tournaments I dont have to play against them either (which I wont do). That is good thing about fan-lists, if they are broken they cant hurt your hobby. :) (EDIT: Untill somebody succesfully labels broken list as a balanced, then problems starts...)




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rpr
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:11 am 
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My main concern with Pylon is that it changes the game setting too much. Remove it from main list and use it in scenarios and all is fine. But as a "random opponent", it changes game field too much. It is not about that it cannot be countered - it is about that an army must use considerable force to counter it before any normal battle can occur. And that, IMNSHO, is what is against GT balanced armies list idea.

But if we want to have something like that in lists, then some similar ideas:
Let's add a new Eldar SHT that has Holo Field and a special Warp disruptor field which causes TK(1) hit on 3+ to
any unit which teleports within 120cm of it as long as SHT is not broken.

Orks could use new version of their old Deflektor system. How about possibility to use Mekboy to give instead of Supa-ZZap or Scoopagun a Deflektor field to battlewagon which would give 3+ UM extra save to all units within 15cm of it?

The first version of 40,000 had this excellent ideas like Toxin grenade/warhead (auto-kill against all without sealed environment, cost: 1/4 pts for unlimited supply). Maybe space marines should have something like that in E:A too? Everybody is using army with sealed environment, those who do not --- well they can kill all Toxin equipped marines first, before they can do too much damage.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:33 pm 
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Personally I'm very much in favour of giving heavy destroyers an AA ability to limit the reliance on pylons, though I definately don't think pylons are in any way broken (well, apart from the way they spend most of each game broken).

Nicodemus: I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. Living metal really is needed for the list. The reason monoliths aren't war engines is simple - Monoliths aren't war engines! -

Necrons get no void shields, no holofields, no shields of any kind. Frankly the big titans are underprotected and overpriced compared to imperial equivilents.


3) If they phase out, make them stay out. Even better, make phase out like it is in 40K, if you lose enough formations, have WHOLE ARMY phase out and game is lost. In Epic it is strenght to be able to reposition your "broken" formation (and autorally it), in 40K phasing out is weakness (you kinda lose when it happens).


Also, you seem to be under the impression that phased out formations still autorally. This is incorrect, they have to roll to rally like everything else.

As a necron player who in the past has complained a huge amount about the list being broken, I will say this:


Without a supreme commander on the field (hence Strategy Rating 1) Necrons are now ballanced.

With a supreme commander they're still slightly overpowered.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:56 pm 
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(zombocom @ Jan. 29 2008,11:33)
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Nicodemus: I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. Living metal really is needed for the list. The reason monoliths aren't war engines is simple - Monoliths aren't war engines! -

Ok, Monoliths are not WE. So lets not give them that then. I can live with that. So RA will suffice. And maybe Invulnerable save. They still should die from Volcano Cannon hit. I just plain hate this MW/TK race against new flashy armours.

But then again, do you want to make Necrons Universally Accepted or keep them as little-circle fan-list? More they have special rules that are not needed, harder they are to get Universal Acceptance.

EDIT: You said that "living metal is needed". Why?

Necrons get no void shields, no holofields, no shields of any kind. Frankly the big titans are underprotected and overpriced compared to imperial equivilents.


Neither does Imperial SHT (void shield, holofied etc) or Nurgle Plague Tower. If powerfields are needed, give them powerfields, those Necron Super Heavies are fanmade so you are free to make them work. Holoshield would be just stupid. Or give them RA and few DC _and give them prizetag that is good to their usefullness_.

Again I fail to see reason for living metal.



Also, you seem to be under the impression that phased out formations still autorally. This is incorrect, they have to roll to rally like everything else.

Not anymore, got corrected few post ago. If you read my previous post you will find that "and phase out cant be used as redeployment" is one of the changes I would like to see. That has not changed yet?


EDIT: I should get Ork Nobz save to 4+ RA because they have not powerfields, holoshields etc. In 40K Nob has 2 wounds, T4, 2+save, 5+ Inv and Powerclaw. So in epic it should be same as terminators, but with TWICE the wounds.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:06 pm 
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For the people who are anti-Pylon in some capacity my question to you is this:

How many games have you personally played where a Pylon was fielded and ended in an overly skewed result?  Please detail the encounter (who you were playing against, what the result was, how did the game go, what version of the list was it).

I watch the Necron batreps quite closely and I can tell you with a high degree of certainty it isn't something that has been posted in a very long time.  The only time it comes up is IN THEORY.  And that is the frustrating thing about the Necrons because a lot of things IN THEORY look really scary about them: pylons, popcorn monolith armies, etc.   Heck, the popcorn army list was touted by Neal himself as broken yet when Chroma did multiple playtests with them it was a luke warm result.  Pylons not only are 'paper dragons' to steal somebody else's term but they are the only AA the Necron have.  No other AA weapons, no planes, nothin'.  Out of the many games I have played with them they have done a heck of a lot more against War Engines than they ever did against aircraft.  (By the way, Hena, Orks aren't the only ones that can have more than 2 aircraft - you forgot the Eldar. So they too can be added to the list of armies able to take out Pylons easily).  They certainly were never a deciding factor in my games.  Destroyers, auto-rally, Aeonic Orb - those have been the hallmarks of my power games.

Personally I'd like to see the list have a couple of things get fixed, but those things are based on games, not theory or opinions.  Auto-rally needED fixing but was addressed and taken care of.  The Strategy Rating needED fixing and the variable SR done by Corey did the trick IMO.
Destroyers need fixing.  This is one reason why I think AA is a bad idea for them - they are already overpowered and you want to make them MORE useful?  Silly wabbit.

My thinking is that players have had one or two bad games against the Necrons of a previous overpowered version, watched their armies crumble against them, and blamed the result on what they perceived to be the most powerful unit per points (the Pylon).  With the changes that have been implemented the Pylon should be much easier to reach and disable with ground units simply because the army is easier to fight against now.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:08 pm 
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Nicodemus: if all your changes were made to the list the necrons would lose all their flavour and be a terrible, underpowered army list.

If you want to play marines then play marines, don't just try to change the necron rules to make them into marines.

Necrons pay through the nose for the abilities they get, and they are limited in other ways instead. Sure, they can redeploy through portals, but they also have virtually no ranged shooting at all. It mostly ballances out in the end.

And as for your point about being a small fan list: do you see the title of this forum? EA Necrons (official)

As for living metal, in 40k monoliths have a living metal rule that makes them immune to the special rules of macro equivilents such as melta guns, why shouldn't they in epic? The epic necron list is still very reliant on monoliths (admittedly a little less than it used to be), and they need some form of protection otherwise the list simply will not work.

The only change I would consider to living metal is to remove the reduction of all TK attacks to TK(1). I'd probably allow TK weapons to do multiple damage points if they got through the save.

The phase out rules from 40k are fine for a 40k scale game, with a couple of squads fighting over a hundred metres of territory over a few minutes. For an epic scale game, with whole armies fighting over vast battlefields and entire cityscapes, a different flavour of rule is required. The phase out rules are what make the necron list in any way interesting and different from marines.

You're focusing entirely on the powerful aspects of the list, and ignoring the weaknesses that ballance them out. Yes there are long ranged pylons, but just about everything else has a 15cm range. Yes there is phase out, but there is also the fact that the army can never march.

Taken as a whole rather than focusing only on small aspects the list is reasonably balanced under the latest revision.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Moscovian: what would be your suggestions to ballance the destroyers? I agree they are currently slightly underpriced, except heavy destroyers which currently suck.

I'd probably raise them to 400 points and make heavy destroyers one shot AT3+/AA6+

Also, as to your pylon question:

The pylon has won the game for me only once, and that was just because my opponent left the avatar in the open in front of it instead of assaulting it...




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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:27 pm 
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(zombocom @ Jan. 29 2008,12:08)
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Nicodemus: if all your changes were made to the list the necrons would lose all their flavour and be a terrible, underpowered army list.

Sounds then that the list is quite very flavourles already when getting rid of stupid things would ruin it totally.

But I think that underpowered list is much better base to build on than overpowered and overly complicated.


If you want to play marines then play marines, don't just try to change the necron rules to make them into marines.


Heh, I would and I will. But unfortunately I want necrons with few modifications (that is: no pylon, phase out redeploy or living armour) so I could play necrons too. With them and against them.

And as for your point about being a small fan list: do you see the title of this forum? EA Necrons (official)

Fortunately Necrons are banned from tournaments so no biggie.

The phase out rules from 40k are fien for a 40k scale game, with a couple of squads fighting over a hundred metres of territory over a few minutes. For an epic scale game, with whole armies fighting over vast battlefields and entire cityscapes, a different flavour of rule is required. The phase out rules are what make the necron list in any way interesting and different from marines.

Yeah, true true. 40K cant be made into epic, that is true. Then we should try to make epic version of Necrons to work.

Unfortunately I have not Necrons Codex from 40K. Are there any fluffpart that tells us about how phase out works? Are there stories of necrons that phase out and then magically tellyport right back? With page number, please (I can go to game store and see from there).

You're focusing entirely on the powerful aspects of the list, and ignoring the weaknesses that ballance them out. Yes there are long ranged pylons, but just about everything else has a 15cm range. Yes there is phase out, but there is also the fact that the army can never march.

Actually I am focusing on non-working or annoying parts. Gamebalance is not my consern when something is just plain wrong. When these 3 little things are corrected I can next focus on gamebalance (or that from necron fluff we find that necrons bounces back and fort, if that happens I am with only 2 problems).

What if orks had powerarmours? Would you care if I told you that "these powerarmours are balanced because grots have got no shoes"? No, you would like to get rid of those powerarmours. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:38 pm 
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I want necrons with few modifications (that is: no pylon, phase out redeploy or living armour)


- Pylons are fully official, they're the only War Engine in the Necron list (Other than the C'Tan) that actually has a model for 40k. Removing them is a complete non-starter.

- Phase out exists in 40k, BFG, and in their background, and must be reflected somehow in Epic.

- Necron pylons have the best armour in 40k, complete with special rules that ignore the effects of some of the more powerful shots that hit them (They ignore the second penetration dice from meltaguns, for example... which is directly analygous to ignoring the effect of MW hits).




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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:45 pm 
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Hena: I'd recommend anyone to play against/with the necrons. It makes for a very different sort of game, though usually the necrons will win the first few until the opponent works out how to deal with them, at which point the necrons are usually in a lot of trouble!

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rpr
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:54 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 29 2008,14:38)
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I'd love to playtest Necrons.

I could use proxy necron army against your last Scions list you used against my EC..
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:40 pm 
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Pylons:  I agree that the posted batreps don't show them to be heinously effective.  However, I can't recall a game being posted where they came up against an air-assault or air-heavy army.  Also, something which apparently is escaping the attention of many people, they don't HAVE to teleport to deploy.  With 120cm range there's no need to teleport them at all.  Risking the BM from teleporting is a bad idea.  If playing a game large enough to afford 3 or more Pylons it might be okay to teleport some, but the first 2 just need to be deployed normally.

Obelisks:  I would definitely not increase Obelisks to be a feature of the list (core formation).  They were invented out of whole cloth.  In contrast to the other wholly-invented units, which are Epic scale WEs, Obelisks are items that should regularly appear in 40k if they were to exist in the 40K-verse.  if anything, they should be reduced in frequency and possibly cut from the list if it can work without them.

Monoliths:  I would still like to see multi-Mono formations tested.  It's much more in keeping with the established background of the universe than integrating non-existent Obelisks to make Monoliths more durable.  I disagree with the theory hammer that they would be too powerful but in any case it's never been tried (or at least not posted to the boards).

Living Metal:  I think it's fine.

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