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Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:43 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 03 2007,17:37)
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No unit does in the game that I'm aware of.

If they want to restore units,


Most Tyranid formations take initiative tests at the end of the turn to restore units.

well, back when I wrote this up, all they did was pop spores to restore units.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:00 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Aug. 03 2007,17:47)
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 02 2007,21:49)
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wow... I wonder if there was this much confusion when they put in the Void Shield rule...

Chroma is correct, that is EXACTLY how it works.

In fact, the entire process functions almost exactly like the Void Shield Restoration Rules do, with the exception that you don't get a freebie at the end of every turn.

It's the same mechanic you've been using for years, just applied to a different function.

No, it's not the same mechanic.

Void shields cannot be repaired by a rally roll. ?When rallying, you only remove BMs as normal. ?You have to regroup with a Marshall or Hold action in order to use BM-removal to repair void shields. ?That's clear and straightforward.

It's that "rally regenerate" difference that is the source of all the confusion.

If you want to use the Void Shield mechanic that would probably simplify matters greatly.

For reference:
Void shields that have been knocked down can
be repaired. Each Titan can repair one downed
void shield in the end phase of each turn. In
addition, if a Titan regroups it can use the dice
roll to either repair the void shield or remove
Blast markers (eg, if you rolled a 2 you could
repair 2 shields, remove 2 Blast markers or
repair 1 shield and remove 1 Blast marker).

Sematics.


The the function is the same except you have to roll to restore units at the end of turn as part of the Rally Phase instead of getting it for free like the void shields.  Otherwise the mechanic is identical.

And since you don't make Rally checks for formations without blast markers....  You don't get to restore units.

Thus a formation that get's broken, is denied the chance to restore any dead Necron units until it come back onto the board, and takes a turn to perform a Marshall Action.



I'm really not in favor of using the rule without that adjustment...

Do you REALLY want to see Necron's automatically popping back to life without have to make a roll?  I don't.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:03 pm 
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Corey, I hate to stir the pot but the idea that the formation must be under fire (ie. have a BM) to do something constructive (add units back) is back @sswards.  If anything, a formation's BMs should preclude the building of Necrons back into the formation.  If you did this, it would go something like this...

Phalanx A has 9 units total, 6 Warriors (1 with a Lord), 3 Immortals.
Turn 1 - It has suffered 3 casualties (all Warriors) and now has 6 units with 4 BMs.  It does not rally.
Turn 2 - Phalanx A marshalls successfully and is allowed to pull of up all four BMs.  At the end of the turn it successfully rallies.  Because it has no BMs, it is able to return 1/2 of the dead Warriors (rounding = 2 units) + 1 for the Lord's Leader ability to play.  In other words, it is back up to strength.

If for some reason it could not have removed all the BMs during the Marshalling, it would be forced to use its rally phase to remove those BMs.

This makes far more sense than the current structure, is easier to understand, and IMO makes it less hinky.  In addition it forces the Necron player to think about placement and marshall orders far more seriously than he is required to do currently.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Corey:  You can call it "semantics" if you want.  That doesn't change the fact that the rally-regen has led to at least 3 different readings just among people who posted in this thread.  

That's a problem no matter what you label it.

Do you REALLY want to see Necron's automatically popping back to life without have to make a roll?  I don't.


It was just an off-the-cuff statement, not a real proposal.  But since you asked... I'd say rally-regen is actually the more powerful option.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:29 pm 
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If the Necron Ability allows you to make a rally check, without blast markers, it in complete defiance of how the rally checks have always worked.

You are giving them TWO chances to restore units!

Not to mention, you have just suggested giving a bonus to formations that Break.  

You break and remove all blast markers... well then why bother using a Marshal Action.  You can just wait till the end of turn and get a chance to restore people at no cost whatsoever.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:49 pm 
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without blast markers, it in complete defiance of how the rally checks have always worked.


As I said before, Tyranids take I tests (essentially rally test) no matter whether they're broken or not, so there's one precedent for you.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:08 pm 
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If the Necron Ability allows you to make a rally check, without blast markers, it in complete defiance of how the rally checks have always worked... You are giving them TWO chances to restore units!


Perhaps, although that isn't terribly clear.  The rule says that you can restore units "When a formation regroups due to rallying, performing a Marshal action, or a Hold action".  Later on it says you can't restore units off board, but "but may take a Marshall action to enter the board and restore units".

So while the intent may not have been to have two opportunities to restore units, the rule clearly allows it simply by not forbidding it.

Not to mention, you have just suggested giving a bonus to formations that Break... You break and remove all blast markers... well then why bother using a Marshal Action.  You can just wait till the end of turn and get a chance to restore people at no cost whatsoever.

Well that is somewhat true, although it is an odd argument against my idea since that is precisely what the Monoliths benefit from, only instead of manpower they benefit from position (via teleportation).

But there are plenty of times that a Necron player would not want to just break and come back.
>If he had no portal to come back through.
>If he didn't want to risk losing his portal.
>If the formation was prepped to support another assault.
> If the position was superior to where the formation could come back.
> If it was turn 3 (or turn 4) and the the player didn't want to have his entire formation count as destroyed
> If the formation was contesting or holding an objective

These are just a few off the cuff - I am sure I could come up with a dozen reasons.

By adopting this change an opponent can now stop a Necron player from regenerating by placing a blast marker on the formation.

This may be a weird way of working the rule but it would solve a LOT of problems both with the power of the regeneration and the feel of the rule itself.  Combined with the initiative changes I think it would balance the Necron list forEVER. :D

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:37 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 04 2007,15:49)
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without blast markers, it in complete defiance of how the rally checks have always worked.


As I said before, Tyranids take I tests (essentially rally test) no matter whether they're broken or not, so there's one precedent for you.

Another expermimental list is not what I would call precedent.

I'm refering the the basic rules and the published armies.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:49 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 04 2007,17:08)
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Well that is somewhat true, although it is an odd argument against my idea since that is precisely what the Monoliths benefit from, only instead of manpower they benefit from position (via teleportation).

But there are plenty of times that a Necron player would not want to just break and come back.
>If he had no portal to come back through.
>If he didn't want to risk losing his portal.
>If the formation was prepped to support another assault.
> If the position was superior to where the formation could come back.
> If it was turn 3 (or turn 4) and the the player didn't want to have his entire formation count as destroyed
> If the formation was contesting or holding an objective

These are just a few off the cuff - I am sure I could come up with a dozen reasons.

By adopting this change an opponent can now stop a Necron player from regenerating by placing a blast marker on the formation.

This may be a weird way of working the rule but it would solve a LOT of problems both with the power of the regeneration and the feel of the rule itself. ?Combined with the initiative changes I think it would balance the Necron list forEVER. :D

Saying that because it isn't strictly forbidden, that it's allowed is not logical.

the rules don't strictly forbid you from hiding your dice rolls and lying about the results, but that doesn't make it "Allowable".

The fundemental premise is that you follow the basic rules of the game, and the lists will provide specific exceptions to those rules, and define how those exceptions work and when they apply.

Since the basic rules state that the end of turn rally is for units who are broken or have blast markers, that would indicated that you do not do rally checks for formations that do not have blast markers.

The expeption to that, appearently would be in the Tyranid list where they may do so reguardless in order to restory units now.


As to the other:  you've missed my point.  My example stated a formation that IS ALREADY broken, has no need to ever use a Marshall Action if they would then get the opportunity to get units back in the Rally Phase at the end of the turn.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:55 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 04 2007,16:02)
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Also the leader doesn't help them bringing shield back.

Leader would help with that, if you had a leader in a formation with a Void Shielded WE.

2.1.8 Leaders
Some units or characters are noted as being leaders. A
formation that includes any leaders may remove one extra
Blast marker for each leader whenever it regroups or
successfully rallies.

The Void Shield rules allow you to remove blast markers or restore void shields when you Regroup.

Of course... you don't see Leaders on Imperial Titans, so it's generally irrelevent for them anyway.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:44 am 
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Corey, you are right,  I not only missed the point of your example but now I have no idea what you are talking about.

As for the allowable - forbidden thing I think you are taking things to the extreme.  Regardless of the intent of the rule it isn't explicit enough otherwise people wouldn't be screwing it up.  Heck, even my OPPONENT was interpreting the rule the same way I was!  It needs to be rewritten at a minimum.

With all that aside, what do you think of my idea to disallow regeneration when the formation has BMs and to allow it when it does not?  If you are concerned about double regeneration then allow it to occur only when marshalling (which would then justify the currently unnecessary +1 to marshall modifier), or only during the rally phase, or simply state that the formation can only regenerate once per turn.  Any of those would work.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:55 pm 
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actually, the idea of requiring them to take a Marshall or Hold action to regenerate troops appeals to me.

Then it won't be for free....

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tv1013
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Works for me; it really makes you think about what you want to do with your action, and ties in nicely to the "Necrons get +1 to Marshalling" rule.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:55 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 06 2007,06:55)
QUOTE
actually, the idea of requiring them to take a Marshall or Hold action to regenerate troops appeals to me.

Then it won't be for free....

I think that capping it at once a turn is better.

I'd be willing to test out either though... just need more Scarabs!

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