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Necrons v4.4 thoughts
zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:37 pm 
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To be perfectly honest, even if it is possible to beat necrons by bunkering up on overwatch, is that a good thing? Does it lead to a fun game? I don't really think so.

The list should really be changed to give other viable tactics.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:43 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 04 2008,19:37)
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The list should really be changed to give other viable tactics.

There are viable tactics, and all kinds of options, it's just that they are (and, I think, should be) a tough army to fight!

Here's one: If the proposed teleport order rule goes through, a Marine player could force the Necron units to teleport in first near his deployed formations (on overwatch, perhaps) and then teleport *behind* them, to put all Phalanxes/Support formations coming out of them instantly in a crossfire for overwatch fire.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:53 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 05 2008,14:37)
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To be perfectly honest, even if it is possible to beat necrons by bunkering up on overwatch, is that a good thing? Does it lead to a fun game? I don't really think so.

The list should really be changed to give other viable tactics.

There are several tactics that can be used.

But what is most feared is the 1st turn, in-your-face, full-frontal assault tactic.

Which can be answered by the exact same thing that could have been used to answer most Skimmer problems:  Overwatch.

But no.  People would rather changed the rules of the game rather than actually adopt tactics to fit the army and situation they find themselves in.

The rules were designed to allow you to have some RESERVES to bring in via teleportation/portals (i.e. Phalanx and Ventator formations).  The Obelisks and Destroyers were statted up to encourage having them on on the table.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:55 pm 
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The primary thing one needs to bear in mind, more then anything else when it comes to fighting Necrons, is that until such point as the majority of their monoliths have been deployed they essentially own the board. Before the game starts, before any piece is placed, the necrons own the board. Anywhere which isn't directly in your ZoC? It belongs to the Necrons until they choose to ignore it. If you don't plan for this, setup and play appropriately, they can and will hammer their targets into the ground. The changes to monoliths won't change that effect much, IMHO, and you'll continue to see issues where you're running into 'unbeatable' necrons as people try to fight them the same way they do most others (Divide up and destroy) but Necrons pretty much own that style of gameplay by default.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:01 pm 
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My point is that overwatch bunkering, while it may sometimes work, doesn't really lead to fun games, and so the list should probably be changed so that the opposition has other options.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Feb. 05 2008,14:55)
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The primary thing one needs to bear in mind, more then anything else when it comes to fighting Necrons, is that until such point as the majority of their monoliths have been deployed they essentially own the board. Before the game starts, before any piece is placed, the necrons own the board. Anywhere which isn't directly in your ZoC? It belongs to the Necrons until they choose to ignore it. If you don't plan for this, setup and play appropriately, they can and will hammer their targets into the ground. The changes to monoliths won't change that effect much, IMHO, and you'll continue to see issues where you're running into 'unbeatable' necrons as people try to fight them the same way they do most others (Divide up and destroy) but Necrons pretty much own that style of gameplay by default.

That's a very good analysis of the situation!

And he's completely correct.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:25 pm 
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Yes that is certainly the case, but should it be? Does that not suggest the list is overpowered?

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:52 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 05 2008,15:25)
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Yes that is certainly the case, but should it be? Does that not suggest the list is overpowered?

The exact same thing can be said for an All terminator army, and all Air Cav army, and all Orbital drop army.

Hell you can even do almost the same thing as the Necron do with the Eldar if you want to restrict yourself to no tanks other than Stormserpents.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:57 pm 
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Yup, but those lists all provide alternate ways to play. There's only one way to make necrons work and it's the teleportalfest.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:21 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 04 2008,21:57)
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Yup, but those lists all provide alternate ways to play. There's only one way to make necrons work and it's the teleportalfest.

Actually, I don't think that's the case.

I think it's possible to play Necrons with a defensive, slow and patient style.  Instead of a "drop everything on the enemy immediately turn 1" it should be possible to teleport into defensive positions and say "come root us out."  It's realistically possible to start the beginning of Turn 1 with Necrons in position on 5 objectives, with the possible exception of facing horde garrisons.

Every portal remains a threat in the manner of an Eldar Farseer or Wraithgate.  Any enemy coming after the Necrons would face the same "throw yourself on the razorwire so the rest of the army can walk across" situation because no matter where they decide to attack, the Necrons can bring lots of stuff in to counterattack anything vulnerable.  Plus, in a defensive position they have popup fire support, sustain fire, and Marshall bonuses.

There are reported battles in which that worked just fine.

The problem, of course, is that is an alternate strategy for the Necrons, not for the enemy.  Until the Necrons are on board and commit to a strategy, it remains exactly as stated above - they own everything.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:36 pm 
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neal: but why would I ever do that when it's jsut so easy to wipe the floor with them on turn one?

Frankly, there really is still a major problem with the list. It's much too easy to win with, and that needs fixing.`

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:45 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 05 2008,17:36)
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neal: but why would I ever do that when it's jsut so easy to wipe the floor with them on turn one?

Frankly, there really is still a major problem with the list. It's much too easy to win with, and that needs fixing.`

Because if you fight someone who knows how to handle a Necron army you are NOT going to wipe the floor with them turn one (unless you are extraordinarily luck).  You are, in fact, walking into a buzz-saw face first.


That's what I hate about all this. ?I could SHOW you so damn easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?But it doesn't have that sense of immediacy or make as much of an impression if I tell you rather than demonstrating it on you.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:02 am 
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Corey: I have played many times against people who know exactly what they're doing against necrons, and I've found ways around it.

At first when I started playing them I never lost, partly because of the overpoweredness of the list at the time, and partly because they had no idea how to play against necrons.

Later, they figured out the tricks, such as bunkering in waves, using a lot of overwatch and not shooting at badly positioned monoliths. For a time I started to lose some games.

However, now I've most found the ways around the bunker tactics. Shoot and break the formations on overwatch, then clipping engage the scouts surrounding them etc, and it's not that hard to crack open the bunkers without even needing to bring half the army onto the table.

And it's got easy to win again, and neither the opponents nor I can see any way around it.

Maybe you can see some special way of beating them, but seemingly most people can't, and to me that seems like the hallmarks of an overpowered list.

Put it this way Corey - has anyone ever complained that the necrons are underpowered?

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:07 am 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 05 2008,18:02)
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Put it this way Corey - has anyone ever complained that the necrons are underpowered?

to me, in person?

yes.  Especially after I've kicked the crap out of a Necron army, or showed them how to do it.

Mostly the responses are along the lines of "gee, I never thought about playing like that, it makes beating them so easy.  Are you sure they aren't underpowered?"

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:10 am 
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Corey: Noone else seems to have spotted these amazing tactics. I certainly haven't in dozens of games.

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