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The Nightbringer

Hojyn

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:49 am

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Quote (corey3750 @ 02 June 2006 (05:44))

I don't disagree that it's a great, and favorful idea, but it's really a matter of getting the list approved, and I know that some of the people who'll be making that decsion don't like special rules.

the more I put in, the greater the resistance to the list will be regardless of wether or not it's point balanced. ? :80:

I agree with Corey.

Although I like Lord Inquisitor's ideas, I think Epic Armageddon is all about NOT adding new rules but making the existing ones fit the new units (like giving Disrupt to the Deceiver's "weapon").

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:16 pm

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My problem is that no existing rule actually fits. Any which way you look at 'dispair' it is a weapon... disrupting the enemy chain of command is much more subtle. And a very simple special rule - forcing or cancelling a re-roll - would make this star god master manipulator a unique piece, not some kind of short ranged manticore battery that's going to render down warlord titans with "dispair"...

Eh, it's your list.

I just think you're missing an opportunity to make the C'Tan stand out.

As for Nightbringer, at least another attack for the sythe, plus the gaze of death to FF (or even both small arms and assault weapons) would make him more attractive.

Lord =I=

P.S. As for the 'no special rules' thing... if Grotz can have their own, specific, unit special rule, then so can the Deceiver himself, surely!

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Ilushia

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:59 pm

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I think Despair was put in to represent his Deceive power in 40K scale. Which allows him to create a realistic hallucination amongst a number of troops to force them to test or break, even if fearless. It's not hard to imagine this 'scaling up' when he's fighting larger engagements. Using his abilities to make an entire unit believe they're under fire from an incoming barrage, orbital assault, walking skeletons (Wait, arn't they?) or something equally scary to force them into hiding or frighten them off the field. It's not so much that the Deceiver can do better disruption of enemy command, but he's excellent and molding and shaping people's perceptions to meet his whims.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:52 pm

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Well, the background suggests machiavellian schemes as well as illusions, which could be represented at the higher level of command - the 40K mechanic isn't exactly inspired either, but then 40K doesn't have initiative rolls or supreme commanders either... But there are other mechanics (like a weapon that just adds BM) that could represent what you are suggesting better than a weapon which blows titans away. I understand the principle, but since this game has rules for morale (BM), an ability that actually kills things 'feels' like that's what it does, even if you do rationalise it as 'disruptive' effects.

Lord =I=

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Ilushia

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:37 pm

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I dunno. I could picture the Deceiver messing with the minds of a titan crew and convincing their onboard Tech-Priests that the machinery was possessed/daemon corrupted or just make him see horrible destructive things crawling from the circuitry making him try to fight them to protect himself. Really though, at 6 BP and no MW or TK it's got trouble seriously harming a titan. The main use of it against them is laying lots of blast markers. Even then he's usually better off assaulting most titans (With his 2 TK(1) attacks and First Strike). His other main ability in 40K, being able to reposition one of his units across the field, is not really possible to replicate in Epic very well. Since most of the time Necrons teleport into action, and giving him that kind of edge would just make him even MORE likely to be chosen.

That said, I do like the Deceiver the way he is. He's a great unit, and fits the 'style' of the C'tan as being very powerful but very specialized in their persuits. It's mostly just that Nightbringer isn't really good enough IMHO. But, we shall see what happens (I have yet to see anyone actually USE Nightbringer, so he might totally kick ass all over the field, and I might just not be able to see it out of his stat line.)

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Hojyn

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:30 am

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Quote (Lord Inquisitor @ 02 June 2006 (19:52))

I understand your point of view, but to be honest, 6BP Disrupt works quite well to represent the Deceiver's abilities.

If you read my latest batrep, you'll see that the Deceiver acted precisely as described in the fluff and used his "weapon" to put BMs on 3 different formations, preparing the incoming Necron assault in the best possible way. Sure, the attack killed a few units, but there could be many "logical" explanations for that: heart attacks, vehicles driving into each other, soldiers firing at their squadmates (thinking them to be monsters or Necrons or whatnot), etc.

My point is: I think the current rule works quite well AND is in keeping with the fluff, so I don't think a new special rule is needed.

I agree with Illushia that the Nightbringer needs a little something, though.

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corey3750

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:14 pm

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Now the Grots rule... that's a very good point.

But let me explain the Deciever's "Weapon".

The way I've always looked at death and blast markers at this scale is reflected in the weapon it'self.

a successful hit on a given unit does not nessesarily mean that the unit is dead/destroyed utterly. It means that the unit is no longer able to fight. It could be that it's destroyed, or that a vehicle threw a tread (like when an AV takes a hit due to terrain), it could be that the crew or squad is mostly, or entirely incapacitated, or just so damn afraid the unit disintegrates.

The Despair weapon does NOT actually kill or destroy a unit. It so utterly and completely screws around with them, that they are no longer willing or able to fight. Instead, infantry units scatter and flee for their lives against imaginary foes, tank crews abandon their vehicles, and even the most fearless and battle-hardend psychopaths. come to believe that victory is impossible, and that retreat is the only possible choice.

It's a weapon that hammers away at a formation's coherency. Despite it's purely mental effects, it does not ignore cover, for the same reason it's not a MW: Both heavy armor and cover provide a sort of mental security blanket that does help to protect the target.

Now, as to the Gaze of Death being a FF weapon: If I'm not completely mistaken, it's an attack that's directly translated from 40k; and that in 40k it only works in close combat. I can't find my Necron Book since the move, so I can't check at the moment.

I can see beefing up his Close Combat capabilities, but giving him more FF ability just isn't the Nightbringer's style. He like to be up close, looking you in the eyes when he kills to. It makes the pain and horror of your death so much sweeter.

I've already set Nightbringer's CC to 2+, and I might be willing to up the number of Scythe attacks. Might have to look at upping his points though.

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Ilushia

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:33 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Lemme see..... *Goes and checks the Necron book* It's... Sortof melee. It's an Ordinance template over his head and hits everything around him. Even if they're not directly attacking him. But yeah, basically melee. Going to CC 3+ and EA 2+ on the scythe would be a good thing. And probably go a long way to make him good enough to be taken. The one thing which concerns me about the Nightbringer which doesn't so much about Deceiver is that if they're in melee, Deceiver has First Strike and is thus much more likely to take out enemies before enemies can take him out. So he'll usually suffer fewer attacks and be more likely to survive then Nightbringer will... That kindof worries me. But it's a minor worry and the increase in combat effectiveness is likely enough to make Nightbringer a good choice.

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ragnarok

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:50 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Just throwing random thoughts about.

Why not have it that the C'tan always goes BOOM when they die. It isn't as if they are that worried about their bodies, there are always spares hanging around.

This will make the nightbringer much more potent in combat, as the enemy have a chance of killing him and then killing themselves.

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Ilushia

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:38 am

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Quote (ragnarok @ 03 June 2006 (23:50))

Just throwing random thoughts about.

Why not have it that the C'tan always goes BOOM when they die. ?It isn't as if they are that worried about their bodies, there are always spares hanging around.

This will make the nightbringer much more potent in combat, as the enemy have a chance of killing him and then killing themselves.

It's an interesting idea, and the way they work in 40K scale, but I think the worry is that they don't want it to be a GOOD thing to have your C'tan die. Though it might work reasonably well, I don't think that'd really fix the problem since it'd apply to both equally. I think most of my worry comes from how fragile the Nightbringer is compared to the Deceiver, which may not be realistic, but also from that the Nightbringer just doesn't seem good enough. Deceiver gets First Strike and with 2 TK attacks and 3 normal attacks it's likely he can off a fair number of enemies with relative ease before they can attack him at all. Nightbringer on the other hand doesn't have First Strike so the enemy will ALWAYS get a chance to hit him no matter how well he does. Meaning he's a much greater risk against many opponents. Which might be a good thing, but his own increased combat effectiveness compared to Deceiver doesn't seem enough to make up the difference right now.

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Hojyn

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:46 am

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Deceiver gets First Strike and with 2 TK attacks and 3 normal attacks it's likely he can off a fair number of enemies with relative ease before they can attack him at all. Nightbringer on the other hand doesn't have First Strike so the enemy will ALWAYS get a chance to hit him no matter how well he does.

How about "transferring" First Strike from the Deceiver to the Nightbringer? The Deceiver doesn't really need it anyway (he's better off shooting 6BP Disrupt barrages) and the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death more than justify giving him First Strike (ennemies are transfixed by his gaze and can't react to his attacks).

It would also allow the Nightbringer to barge into CC with several stands or with other DC with less fear of retribution. This would be balanced by the fact that he has "only" one TK attack.

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Ilushia

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:05 am

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Quote (Hojyn @ 04 June 2006 (07:46))

That'd work quite well I think. I never really understood why Deceiver got first strike to begin with. But the idea that Nightbringer is FS while Deceiver is better at range sits quite nicely with me. It MIGHT make Nightbringer too good (As he could potentially wipe out 6 stands before they got to swing on him) but I doubt it. Considering he's got a 300 point price-tag he better be able to do something fairly amazing. That'd work well, Deceiver would become a support-unit mostly good for laying lots of blast markers before the Necrons attack and Nightbringer would become a slayer-unit, existing to kill enemy heavy units, like titans, in melee.

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corey3750

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:57 pm

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sounds good to me.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:24 pm

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Quote (Hojyn @ 03 June 2006 (03:30))

I did read your battle report (very good it was too), and I even replied to your thread in case you didn't notice ?

.

However, actually, I would disagree with both you and with Corey3750. I don't think that is a good representation of the Deceiver's abilities.

a successful hit on a given unit does not nessesarily mean that the unit is dead/destroyed utterly. ?It means that the unit is no longer able to fight. ?It could be that it's destroyed, or that a vehicle threw a tread (like when an AV takes a hit due to terrain), it could be that the crew or squad is mostly, or entirely incapacitated, or just so damn afraid the unit disintegrates.

The Despair weapon does NOT actually kill or destroy a unit. ?It so utterly and completely screws around with them, that they are no longer willing or able to fight. ?Instead, infantry units scatter and flee for their lives against imaginary foes, tank crews abandon their vehicles, and even the most fearless and battle-hardend psychopaths. come to believe that victory is impossible, and that retreat is the only possible choice.

I honestly do understand the rationale behind the disrupt "weapon", but my points are as follows:

1. The Deceiver is able to spin illusions. If we are to translate these tricks literally into Epic, then a weapon that PURELY adds BM to units would be far preferable. Rather than killing units (including praetorians, noise marines, titans, etc), it would follow all the normal morale rules. So non-fearless units could be destroyed by excessive BM (running away, etc), but Fearless units can simply be broken.

Suggestion:
Weapon ? ?Range ? Firepower ? Notes
Dispair ? ? ? 45cm ? ?Special ? ? ? Any formation targetted by Dispair suffers D6 BM (+1 if sustained fire, -1 if part of a double action.)

Not exactly too complicated, is it? Yet it gives immediately the impression of the special nature of the Deceiver's "attack".

2. Actually, I don't agree that spinning enormous illusions or filling the foes with dread is Deceiver's style, even if he is capable of it (also note that his abilities in 40K are vastly less powerful). If anything, that's Nightbringer's style - inflicting fear and dread in all before him. Deceiver is the creature that initiated the Gothic war for its own purposes, a master of manipulation capable of twisting and using even other Star Gods. So when it takes a personal interest in the Necron battles, he does what, run around and go 'woo' in an oh so scary way? Or has he laid devious plans to compromise the enemy command structure, disrupt their supplies, influence their communication abilities? For starters?

Suggestion: add the following to the Deceiver's "Notes" section:

The Deceiver is an ancient master of manipulation. As long as it is on the table, once per turn the Necron player may force his opponent to re-roll a successful Initiative test OR cancel out a re-roll from a Supreme Commander.

That's about the same amount of added text as the Grotz or IG infantry rules, and much simpler than - say - the battery of special rules belonging to the Avatar.

I understand the rationale behind the Dispair power, I just think that the FEEL of the unit could be so much improved with a special rule - like in the case of the Grotz, Avatar, basic Imperial Guard or drop pods. None of these are strictly necessary for the game, but add bucketloads to the feel of the army. And the same is with Deceiver - he should be disrupting the enemy with his cunning manipulations, not blasting them away from afar. I.e. he shouldn't be considered "Shooty," rather "subtle".

Lastly, regarding Nightbringer, I think gaze of death could be made FF as well as CC... it isn't much of a streach, and as mentioned above Deceiver isn't exactly a perfect translation from 40K!

Lord =I=

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Hojyn

Post subject: The Nightbringer

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:27 pm

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I did read your battle report (very good it was too), and I even replied to your thread in case you didn't notice .

Oops, indeed. And I also just noticed I didn't answer your questions in that thread. :blush:

As for your suggestions concerning the Deceiver, while I do think that they very good and "fluffy" ideas, I'm just not convinced special rules are needed here, for several reasons:

- there are already many special rules in the Necron army list (portals, WBB, Living Metal) as well as completely new units;

- all of these special rules are "generic" special rules (they apply to the whole army or at least to several units), not "specific" special (like yours are) and I think that "generic" rules are preferable in Epic Armageddon, for simplicity's sake. NetEpic, on the other hand, encourages unit-specific rules;

- is "Any formation targetted by Dispair suffers D6 BM" that different from "6BP Disrupt"? Most of the time, the results will be the same, except the barrage weapon may end up destoying a couple of units;

- "As long as it is on the table, once per turn the Necron player may force his opponent to re-roll a successful Initiative test OR cancel out a re-roll from a Supreme Commander": I like this one, but again I don't feel like it's really needed. I'm fine with "Supreme Commander".

In summary, I like your ideas, but I also like my EpicA simple (and yet surprisingly difficult to master :(8:

). That said, if it turns out your suggestions are adopted, it wouldn't be a scandal either.

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