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[Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
Onyx
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:15 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 13:58 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 18 Nov. 2008, 01:49 )

mark_Logue and I played a game using Necrons a while back (LINK).

As mentioned in the batrep, the 2 pylons fired 1 shot all game and killed a solitary biker. They are a paper tiger.

I don't see exactly where they were (so can't comment on how close to enemy they were), but
1) They were teleported alone, which means that entire army can go at them.
2) At least one was teleported to open (I don't have a pic of the other so can't say), which means that every one can have a go even more easier

As far as showing quality of Pylons, that game is useless.

Well thanks for making such an un-informed and un-biased comment on my gaming abilities...!  :no:

As was stated, this was the first time Necrons had been used and many lessons were learnt.

If the Pylons had been placed closer together (and behind cover) they would've been easy to avoid (using cover) so your statements are quite useless aswell. There was no Marine airforce so the Pylons needed to be able to hit enemy ground units. No point hiding them at all. Even without air units to protect, the Marines had to deal with the Pylons ASAP and they did this EASILY!

There was no entire army for the Marines to go at them until half way through the 2nd turn (after drop pods landed). By then the Pylons were easy to deal with (or already broken). Wrong again Hena.

Sorry Hena, I'm not with you on this one at all.




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Onyx
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:58 am 
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First Up, I don't really think I made many mistakes with my Pylons.

Aircraft can't use cover.

That is a very obvious statment that I know VERY well. I was obviously referring to the Marine ground units that the Pylons could possibly target.

But you just pointed out why the game is not relevant to this question. Pylons break air game not ground game. So this game proves nothing. I'm not arguing that they are breaking in ground as they aren't. That isn't the point. The point is aircrafts. A game without aircrafts doesn't help at all in what I'm saying.
Actually your wrong again. Pylons don't break the air game because they are easy to deal with (as this game totally proved and as others keep trying to tell you).

You need to do one damage to break it. You have Warhounds which are in range as well as other Marines (they move fast to give that one BM). Lastly you roll ini against Marines. Sorry, that's just not going to work in most cases. But this is not the point as we are talking about aircrafts.
Marines won the 1st turn initiative and they had broken a Pylon before the Necrons had a chance to do anyting (with only 3 formations on the table and without giving the remaining Pylon anything valuable to attack).
Necrons won 2nd turn initative and killing the Terminators was OBVIOUSLY more important than firing a Pylon at something unimportant. The drop pods put a blast marker on the remaining Pylon and a simple retain attack broke it.
It couldn't be more straight forward.
Pylons are generally, quite easy to break and that is actually the point of this discussion. If there had been aircraft in this game, they wouldn't have had to wait long to activate.

Maybe a limit of 1 pylon per 1000pt?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:59 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 06:58 )

I don't see exactly where they were (so can't comment on how close to enemy they were), but
1) They were teleported alone, which means that entire army can go at them.
2) At least one was teleported to open (I don't have a pic of the other so can't say), which means that every one can have a go even more easier

1- I don't believe in the 'teleport your pylons in a cluster' tactic... it only leads to all your pylons breaking after a clipping engagement.

2- Pylons have to teleport into the open, as they cannot ignore LOF; If you want your pylons to be useful to the ground war (And for 200pts you are wasting them if you don't) then you have to teleport them somewhere with good visibility.


You need to do one damage to break it.


Typically you only need to shoot at it to break it... Pylons tend to be BM magnets (Heck, 1/3rd of the time a Pylon will arrive on the board with a Blast marker due to its Teleport event) and so any chump with a Heavy Bolter can break one.

Pylons don't break the game, they balance out the Necrons' complete lack of:

a - Aircraft
b - Other Anti-Aircraft guns


Pylons can't move, take two BMs to break, don't have a CC stat, and are constrained by LOF issues into always being in a position where the enemy can see them.

Honestly Hena, you're bigoted against Pylons. :blues:




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thurse
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:55 am 
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I tend to agree with Hena.

Pylons seem balanced to me against every army except airbourne marines. In a typical 3000-point game, I field 2 thunderhawks. Including the cargo that s often around 1200 points. Perhaps am I wrong but it does not seem too much to me. My necron opponent used to field 2 pylons.

The problem is that with a 120cm range, the necron player can deploy them in places where the rest of the army can hardly reach them. If I dedicate formations to break them, it means ( in most games) either 4 cheap formations or 2 formations with the punch needed to break them.

If I do that, those formations will not be able to support the upcoming air assaults, which is their role. Furthermore, the turn pylons teleport, you often have monoliths threatening most of your ground formations. If you focus on pylons, they tend to bring havoc...


2- Pylons have to teleport into the open, as they cannot ignore LOF; If you want your pylons to be useful to the ground war (And for 200pts you are wasting them if you don't) then you have to teleport them somewhere with good visibility.


I tend to disagree : 400 points blocking 1200 points is a bargain. Against marines, pylons can be deployed in a safe place.
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zombocom
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:34 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 10:52 )

Henas' masterplan on how to use Pylons.

1. Deploy/Teleport on you own baseline or very, very near it! Only reason to not to is to get behind a terrain!
2. Deploy/Teleport behind terrain piece so that it cannot be seen unless gone around the terrain. Note that failing to do nr 1 will make this pointless.
3. Garrison one (on blitz obviously, anything else is most likely too far from board edge) and put it overwatch so that it cannot be closed in without damage.
4. Teleport rest of your army on opponents face and hammer away. This bit is needed so enemy is too busy to actually do something about Pylons.


Necrons can't Garrison, except Phalanxes off a tomb complex. Pylons can never Garrison.

Basically, pylons are pretty good against exactly one type of army, the air assault list (though still easy to break, send in a fighter squadron, teleport terminators etc), and utterly useless against any other army.

Bear in mind that other that the pylons, the air assault/teleporty marine list is otherwise almost impossible for Necrons to beat, as they have nothing but chaff to send the monoliths at, leaving the marines free to land, kill and run away again. Necrons excell at hitting slow moving units before they can run away, Air Assault Marines are the opposite of that.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 11:03 )

This is interesting. Do you roll d6 for each DC of teleporting WE or once? I would think that it's roll once, similar to dangerous terrain test.

With teleport you roll a D6 for each unit in the formation, a Pylon with 2DC counts as two units, so 2D6 for possible Blast markers.

For dangerous terrain, you just "roll a D6" when you enter it or move within in, nothing about "units", and War Engines suffer a single hit if they roll a "1".

The rules are different for either test.

So, a Pylon has a 1-in-3 chance of arriving with a Blast marker, a 1-in-6 chance of taking 1DC damage if placed in most forms of cover, and a 1-in-36 chance of breaking on arrival.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 12:52 )

If you don't use aircraft, then it's obvious that you don't see the point. When I played with Tyranids against them, it wasn't a problem ...

And that's exactly the point!

Pylons are only "exceptional" against one type of army: air-focused.  And even then, you'll need a fair number to be an "insurmountable" threat, and there are ways of dealing with it: garrison your "cargos" instead of leaving them in their air transports, if the Pylons haven't appeared in Turn 1, land your aircraft to form firebases that you can attack from.

Pylons vs air-focus isn't broken because it makes it "tough" for the "easy-button" of air assault to be used, it means you're being challenged to think outside your normal box, and, to me, that is a *good* thing.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Can you teleport into cover like woods say?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2008, 13:10 )

With outside of the box, you mean outside of table? That's the stupid thing about the frikkin' thing. You can't avoid it if it's on table! Only after you break it can you avoid it.

It doesn't encourage any thinking at all. If it's on table, you can't bring in any aircraft ... anywhere.

Which means you have to *think* of ways to deal with them before you bring aircraft in...

How "heavy" of an air list are you talking here anyway?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Playtest] A Plethora of Pylons
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 18 Nov. 2008, 13:13 )

Can you teleport into cover like woods say?

You can, but you have to make a dangerous terrain test when you do so... and I've had Pylons go up on a critical on occasion doing that.

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