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Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:54 pm 
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The entire system is flat out funky ...


I'll agree to that, it gets truly broken when you start dealing with lots of Monoliths (Which recive such awesome power boosts from becoming broken it's not even funny).

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:07 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 01 2007,19:27)
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Once they are on the board, they will NOT be able to restore any units unless they either (a.) Take a Marshall Action on a future turn, or (b.) they recieve blast markers, and may make a Rally Check at the end of the turn as normal.

I believe what Corey is saying here is that a Necron formation with no Blast markers does NOT get a change to rally in the End Phase and get back units.

Just remember that Rally and Regroup are two different methods of removing Blast markers.

An "in reserve" Necron formation that "Marshalls" out of a Portal may use the "regroup" portion of their action to return units to the formation, regardless of whether it has Blast markers or not.

In the End Phase, a Necron formation that was missing some units, but had no Blast markers, would *NOT* be able to take a Rally test in an attempt to return units.

Corey, am I making the correct distinction there? ?That's how we've always played it.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:34 pm 
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I have been playing it that your marshall/rally functions use BMs and effective BMs to determine if you can bring back Necron units.  So that is three different methods of play being used on the same list in the span of one thread.  

It is obviously not a clearly understood rule. :O

The mechanic of removing broken units from the board does not disturb me, although it makes little sense that you could only 'regenerate' Necron troops when you have BMs (are under fire).  There should be no distinction between an 'effective BM' (a lost unit with no BM) and a BM.  And if you were to make any distinction at all, it should be that formations with no BMs be able to use their Necron ability and ones with BMs should not.

I am not in favor of overhauling the Necron rules for the record.  I think the the suggestions made by Corey to have a variable Strategy Rating (3 or 1) and changing initiatives for some formations is a good solution.  While I don't believe changing the monolith will have a big effect, I do believe giving the infantry formations an initiative of 2 will.  Necron players will be forced to develop contigency plans or leave their Monoliths out there unprotected.

With all that said, here are some thoughts on rule changes...  :;):  I would think that to capture the feel of the Necron you would need teleporting as a major part of the Necron force.  What if you were to reverse the rule for teleporting?  All unbroken formations have the ability to remove themselves from the board during the rally phase.  Anything broken must remain on the board.  What would happen at this point?  Would the list be more powerful?  Less?  Would it change the cost of the formations?  I don't know.

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tv1013
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:14 am 
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Yeah, after seeing all the responses, I was also thinking it strange that you could only recover models when under fire, and most likely far from where they were destroyed.  

I can understand the intent, but the more I understand the rules, the odder they seem.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:41 am 
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I think that instead of trying to finesse the rules any further it might be useful to try to write a few bullet points outlining the intended effect of the abilities and then it will, I think, be easier to try to keep the rules (amended or otherwise) in fitting with the original intent.

As well, what is it that BMs are meant to model with the Necrons? Casualties? Just the sheer chaos of the situation? It might be easier to determine the overall effect of BMs if that was known

Correct me if I am wrong there also does't appear to be any mention of Macro Weapons removing Necron units from the board entirely. Anyone know why was that not modelled into the army?

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:49 pm 
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wow... I wonder if there was this much confusion when they put in the Void Shield rule...

Chroma is correct, that is EXACTLY how it works.

In fact, the entire process functions almost exactly like the Void Shield Restoration Rules do, with the exception that you don't get a freebie at the end of every turn.

It's the same mechanic you've been using for years, just applied to a different function.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:52 pm 
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In fact, the entire process functions almost exactly like the Void Shield Restoration Rules do, with the exception that you don't get a freebie at the end of every turn.


So spell it out in the army list, rather than just telling us few folk.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:06 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Aug. 02 2007,21:41)
QUOTE
I think that instead of trying to finesse the rules any further it might be useful to try to write a few bullet points outlining the intended effect of the abilities and then it will, I think, be easier to try to keep the rules (amended or otherwise) in fitting with the original intent.

As well, what is it that BMs are meant to model with the Necrons? Casualties? Just the sheer chaos of the situation? It might be easier to determine the overall effect of BMs if that was known

Correct me if I am wrong there also does't appear to be any mention of Macro Weapons removing Necron units from the board entirely. Anyone know why was that not modelled into the army?

Would you really want to keep track of that?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:16 pm 
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Well, good to know (although every Necron game I have ever played feels dirty and tainted now). :glare:

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:21 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 02 2007,14:06)
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Would you really want to keep track of that?

You already mark MW hits differently anyway (at least we do since the saves are different) so I don't know that its really that much additional work. Toss them in a different pile when they die and then you know not to use them to resurrect.

The Necron player is going to need to keep track of their formation losses anyway are they not?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:21 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 02 2007,13:49)
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wow... I wonder if there was this much confusion when they put in the Void Shield rule...

Actually there was

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:23 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 01 2007,13:07)
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In the End Phase, a Necron formation that was missing some units, but had no Blast markers, would *NOT* be able to take a Rally test in an attempt to return units.

If this is indeed correct would the formation be able to just Marshall (or as [part of a Hold) return units?

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:29 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Aug. 03 2007,17:23)
QUOTE

(Chroma @ Aug. 01 2007,13:07)
QUOTE
In the End Phase, a Necron formation that was missing some units, but had no Blast markers, would *NOT* be able to take a Rally test in an attempt to return units.

If this is indeed correct would the formation be able to just Marshall (or as [part of a Hold) return units?

yes.

If a formation has no blast markers, it doesn't make a rally check at the end of the turn.  No unit does in the game that I'm aware of.

If they want to restore units, they must take a Marshall Action, or a Hold action.  That is the only way a formation without Blast Markers can restore units.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:37 pm 
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No unit does in the game that I'm aware of.

If they want to restore units,


Most Tyranid formations take initiative tests at the end of the turn to restore units.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necrons and marshalling/regrouping
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:47 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Aug. 02 2007,21:49)
QUOTE
wow... I wonder if there was this much confusion when they put in the Void Shield rule...

Chroma is correct, that is EXACTLY how it works.

In fact, the entire process functions almost exactly like the Void Shield Restoration Rules do, with the exception that you don't get a freebie at the end of every turn.

It's the same mechanic you've been using for years, just applied to a different function.

No, it's not the same mechanic.

Void shields cannot be repaired by a rally roll.  When rallying, you only remove BMs as normal.  You have to regroup with a Marshall or Hold action in order to use BM-removal to repair void shields.  That's clear and straightforward.

It's that "rally regenerate" difference that is the source of all the confusion.

If you want to use the Void Shield mechanic that would probably simplify matters greatly.

For reference:
Void shields that have been knocked down can
be repaired. Each Titan can repair one downed
void shield in the end phase of each turn. In
addition, if a Titan regroups it can use the dice
roll to either repair the void shield or remove
Blast markers (eg, if you rolled a 2 you could
repair 2 shields, remove 2 Blast markers or
repair 1 shield and remove 1 Blast marker).

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