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Necrons v4.4 thoughts

 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:39 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Jan. 30 2008,18:28)
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(Moscovian @ Jan. 31 2008,13:25)
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375 points. Destroyers 2 x AP4+/AT6+, 25cm movement.  Swap 1 for 1 Heavy Destroyers AT3+, 25cm movement.

I have never playtested them that way but I could see that having a reasonable effect - certainly enough to try out for the next year or so.

I have no problem with that set up.

Out of curiosity, what is the benefit of the Heavy Destroyer in that setup?  How would it be used?

It looks like it would only be better if you anticipated a fair amount of double moves, where the high to-hit number wouldn't be severely downgraded by the -1 for moving.  The Heavy would definitely be good in a shoot-and-scoot role against enemy armor, but that's a pretty narrow role.

Obviously, orders make a difference, but another way to think about it for the purposes of comparing average damage would be trading 2x AP4+/AT6+ for 2x AT5+.  Put like that, it looks like it's even on firepower at best (though I'd probably consider that a downgrade).

Going back to the actual proposed stats, on advance the Heavy is better at AT.  On sustain, they are practically the same at AT.

In return for that AT boost, it loses all AP, some speed, and a point of FF (which the regular destroyers can use to get AVs if need be).

Basically, it looks like the basic Destroyers are still better in every single role except hunting AVs while on the move.  Given that the Necrons are often very "in your face" (fewer double moves) and don't seem to be particularly lacking in tools to deal with AVs, that doesn't seem very useful.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:44 pm 
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Destroyers are one of the few necron formations that actually do double. They're often used to contest objectives, so will need to double and shoot quite a lot, particularly with a speed downgrade.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Going back to the actual proposed stats, on advance the Heavy is better at AT.  On sustain, they are practically the same at AT.


I don't think I've ever seen Zombocom Sustain Fire with his Necrons. It's just not in the character of the list.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:28 pm 
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I must say, I'm pleased at how much response this thread has generated :)

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Only the Tyranids generate more interest than the Necrons.  I think there is an unspecified rule that all Necron threads be 6+ pages long.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:57 pm 
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There aren't many necron threads, but boy are they busy,

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:29 am 
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Living Metal is okay, except that TK reduction rule. However, I would rename it like "super tough" and use the same in Demiurg WEs (they have the particle shielding, which is similar but not as good as living metal)

For the pylon: if it could only fire AA once per turn... still a big threat but at least not popping every fricking air formation. Or 60cm range, that is still almost half the table and would give enough air cover (and you can always take more than one). See 'Thunderfire' - which even cannot teleport.


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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:50 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 30 2008,18:08)
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Living metal is fine. The only guy really arguing against it has never seen it ingame.

And who might that be? If you are referring to me, then I would suggest you to READ my posts. I have said that I have played against necrons.

You dont have agree with me (and when you dont, try to make an argument), but DONT make any assumptions of what I have or have not done. Ask if you want to know something.


Quote from ragnarok:
One: ?You wat to keep to the fluff, yet you want to get rid of pylons and create a new unit (the AA obilisk)


I cant figure good stats for pylon when you should keep it true to its background AND keep it not changing flow of game too much. So, drop it from tournament list. Keep it for scenarios and Do What You Want games. Then you could even upgun it if desired.

AA-obelisk is just suggestion. Pylon breaks game -> No pylon -> Necrons dont have AA -> They need AA -> No aircrafts -> AA must be earthbound -> AA-Obelisk

Only way I could take Pylon to game of Epic would be that it would not have TK, or MW. And range to 60. But that would be somewhat against background. So it is simplier to get rid of it altogether than to casturate it.


Two: The desire to exactly copy 40K rules into epic. ?If we did this then the volcano cannon would be down graded to TK(1) since it is only a stength D weapon.


Actually main argument living metal defenders have had is "it works like that in 40K", I have been trying to point out that we cant follow 40K to letter. Fluff says monoliths are made of living metal and are tough as nails, epic rules can handle that with RA and INV and if even further mojo is needed, WE.

We have rules, but for some reason new unnecessary rules are made. Is this some reaction to MW/TK race (MW BP chaos)? When you have to play against unfamiliar opponent you would like the rules to be as streamlined as possible. If I turn up with necrons to blind match I have to use long time to explain how every different special rule work instead of just starting to play with familiar rules. That "necron" special rule cannot be represented in epic with "core rules" so it have to have special rule, same thing with phase-out. But when something is resilent, we HAVE rules already for that. Fluff says that Land Raider is "inpenetrable", still it is happy with its 4+RA. It does not need any "machine spirit" special rule in epic.

?In Big Book army lists had none, one or two special rules. How many do Necrons have? Four? Five! (Living metal is special rule even if it has not been labeled so.)

So far arguments for living armour has been: JJ said so and how 40 K works. What else did I miss?

When you are not invulnerable, you have to use movement, deployment, terrain, you know, basic strategy to keep your troops/machines alive. I do hope that even necrons should care about that, because I thought that that was what wargames are all about.

Quote from Corey:
I'd litterally have to have the Abbatoir with 16-18, the Aeonic orb with 14-16, C'tan with 6-8, and the Monoliths would have to come in 3's or 4's in order to keep their points as they are, if I took out Living Metal.

Well... No?

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:47 am 
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Well... yes.

Simply put, living metal is essential and not going away. Without it monoliths will be dead far too quickly, and the game will be over on turn one. The only solution would be to make them cheaper, and that leads us back to the old popcorn list which nobody wants to see.

Plus, it totally fits the background! Necrons vehicles ARE made of living metal, which gives extra protection against more powerful attacks. Monoliths SHOULD be able to shrug off melta guns!

I'm generally not a fan of special rules, I prefer in almost all cases to remove them (see my redemptionist list - no special rules), but living metal is needed, the list doesn't work without it.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:56 am 
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OKay Nicodemus, let me try another way...

Do you think that you have played with and against the Necrons enough to refute the combined experience of the people who disagree with you here?

I will bet a buffalo nickel the answer is no.  In fact my repeated requests for your playtest information have not been answered.  Since I am left to guess, I'd venture that you've played exactly ONE game against the Necrons and probably a very long time ago.

Or that your knowledge of the Necrons is sufficient to actually say with certainty that your ideas are more in line with the fluff than the other people disagreeing with you?

You've already answered this as a big no.

Being that this thread has quickly degenerated into Nicodemus vs everyone else it should be a big clue maybe you are off on your thought process. Sometimes it is better to look at the greater good and how the bulk of the players are reacting to the list (and its components) rather than sticking to your guns.

Living metal is an appropriate item.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:21 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jan. 31 2008,10:56)
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Do you think that you have played with and against the Necrons enough to refute the combined experience of the people who disagree with you here?

That could easily be the case, but unfortunately most of the people I have spoken to, not in internet, but in Real Life, share my views. It seems true that I am one of the few (rpr seems to share my view of Pylon (and to somewhat Hena too?)) to disagree. Not everyone that plays epic comes to these forums, and even fewer bothers to express their disagreement (and yeah, that works to other way too).

I truly think that majority is not an excuse to do something. One people can be wrong, and thousand people can be wrong. Ah, Godwins law.

Being that this thread has quickly degenerated into Nicodemus vs everyone else it should be a big clue maybe you are off on your thought process. Sometimes it is better to look at the greater good and how the bulk of the players are reacting to the list (and its components) rather than sticking to your guns.

Living metal is an appropriate item.


It is easier not to care. That is what most of people do. It is always hard to disagree with people, it leads to dissing "you have not even played", "playtest or shut up!", "Your kung-fu is pig dung!"  and eventualy to mob rule "there are more of us!!".

Nice to see that last "argument" you made about living metal is only statement without any reasonings. Only justification being: We, who are many, say this is like we say it is.

You did not even bothered to say why living metal was needed.

If argumentation or conversation is not tolerated you indeed can keep your list.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Your post could easily be directed back at yourself, Nicodemus. I didn't reiterate the Living Metal arguments because I agree with the proponents who posted above.  I don't see a need at this point to regurgitate four people's well stated viewpoints.

You and I had a private PM conversation similar to this where you shared your bizarre opinion that somehow people who disagree with YOU are closed minded and insulting.  The conversation here has gotten more personalized and directed to you because you keep posting the same dang thing with NOTHING to back it up.

Quite personally I think that even the vague experience you claim to have had with the Necrons is a bold faced lie.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:12 pm 
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I think it's good to hear a fresh perspective on Living Metal, it makes us question whether the rule is appropriate.

Personally, having played a decent ammount of games against Necrons, I think it is.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:32 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Jan. 31 2008,07:50)
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Pylon breaks game

This seems to be the crux of your argument, Nicodemus, but it's wrong.

The Pylon *does not* break the game, what it does is trump a specific tactic: the "first strike" air assault.  

It certainly can threaten enemy air assets, but all good AA placement can do that.  It means Marines may have to rethink a Thunderhawk assault force when they meet it, but Marines have the flexibility to then be ground deployed instead, holding their T-Hawks in reserve unitl after the Pylons are dealt with.  Heck, if the T-Hawks are planetfalling in, they can't be shot at on the way down.

Against an army with no/few aircraft, a Pylon will rarely get its points back.

I'm curious Nicodemus, what armies have you fielded against Necrons?

I'd invite you to take a look at the following battle reports of mine that all include two Pylons in the Necron army, vs a wide range of opponents, who did *not* know they'd be fighting Necrons.  Give them a once-over and let me know what you think!  I'm interested on your thoughts on the games.

Necrons vs Eldar

Necrons vs Space Marines

Necrons vs Orks

Necrons vs Steel Legion

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:45 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 31 2008,08:12)
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I think it's good to hear a fresh perspective on Living Metal, it makes us question whether the rule is appropriate.

You are right, but stating an argument ad nauseum isn't appropriate.  It is about as close to harassing as you can get on a forum.

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