Tactical Command
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Is 6mm the wrong scale?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23034		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  jprp [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Several people onsite have gone to the trouble of replicating Titan artwork in model form and these models tower over the official releases.
Would it have been better if GW had made troops and tanks in 2mm instead?
To illustrate my point here is a picture of an Imperator with 2mm troops which i think is about right when compared to the artwork.

Image

Any thoughts?
Author:  Blindhorizon [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
GW's stuff is closer to 8mm then 6mm, the titans have been shrunk down way past 6mm though.
Author:  epic [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Dont think 2mm scale would of ever worked, 6mm scale in my mind is fantastic as you can get massive amounts of troops
representing the war in the 40k universe, and still have the detail, I personally would prefer to upscale the larger war
machines to keep the 6mm scale obtained from the artwork, but thats my personal prefrence.

Cant see how you could get any detail on 2mm minatures in 40k stuff as they would just look like blobs and would
represent hardly anything, but if your playing mainly titan army that would be understandable.

Regards epic
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Yes- and even going back to the initial box sets, you got the scale of the game ranging from Tactical Marines to Rhinos and Land Raiders and then the Titans. At 6mm infantry are just about distinguishable as individual figures. If you shrunk the infantry to 2mm then you might as well play with counters.
Author:  jprp [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
epic wrote:
Dont think 2mm scale would of ever worked, 6mm scale in my mind is fantastic as you can get massive amounts of troops
representing the war in the 40k universe, and still have the detail, I personally would prefer to upscale the larger war
machines to keep the 6mm scale obtained from the artwork, but thats my personal prefrence.

Cant see how you could get any detail on 2mm minatures in 40k stuff as they would just look like blobs and would
represent hardly anything, but if your playing mainly titan army that would be understandable.

Regards epic


Ive been watching your Imperator build and it will be very similar to my pic in proportion (i think), its one of the reasons that got me thinking about this.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
I think people should just accept the concept of flexible scale and stop thinking of game pieces as being the same thing as scale models.

Infantry are bigger than they "should" be and titans and aircraft are smaller than they "should" be only if you operate on the assumption everything has to be in the same scale.

Do you expect the same of the space ships in BFG (or any other space combat game)? I doubt it.

The 'true-scale' imperator shows explicitly why true-scale is a poor approach. As with super heavies in 40k apocalypse, once units become as wide as a significant percentage of a table edge they become unwieldy, both in a real physical sense and in a tactical sense within the game.

I think it is better for units to match the scale of other similar units. That way all infantry have a common scale, all AVs have a common scale, and all titans have a common scale. Sure, that leaves thing like war walkers and dreadnought in a gray in-between area, but that is okay too. Playablity shouldn't be discounted in favor of some OCD, one-size fits all approach.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Yeah ... generally speaking the Titans are smaller than 6mm ... like 1/500 IIRC ... :eh
Author:  Man of kent [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Here's an interesting read semi related to the posts initial question!

http://www.wargames.co.uk/randoms/Library/size.htm
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
I got no problem with things like aircraft and spacecraft having their own scale, but I do prefer that stuff on the ground has the same scale. If that makes the Imperator unwieldy in 6mm, so be it.

I think 2mm could be a very fun scale to use, even if it meant taking the focus away from infantry. 2mm tanks should be just big enough to show some detail, while 2mm war engines and titans would be even more awesome with all the tiny men around them showing their true size.

As for "6mm let's you show a massive amount of troops": Um, not really. How many men in the biggest Ork or IG armies? 300? 400? Maybe 500? That's nothing at all even in the context of WWII, and even less in the huge battles in the 40k universe.
Author:  carlos [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
If going for a 1:1 ratio of representation then anything above 2mm is irrelevant unless you're talking small skirmishes. 3k of Imperial Guard in 6mm is nothing - even if you just buy infantry companies it's only 700 men! Epic is only part of a massive battle, a zooming into a section whose outcome might tip the whole thing. What does that say about 50-a-side 40k games?

The reason 6mm is used is because it's a reasonable scale to still be able to field big things like main battle tanks and walkers (40k apocalypse is just silly) and still have some level of detail on the infantry. It's definitely not about 'massive amount of troops'. Pretty sure at 2mm you couldn't tell the difference between a space marine and a guardsmen except for the primary colours that the former sometimes wear all over.
Author:  ulric [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
Quote:
As for "6mm let's you show a massive amount of troops": Um, not really. How many men in the biggest Ork or IG armies? 300? 400? Maybe 500? That's nothing at all even in the context of WWII, and even less in the huge battles in the 40k universe.


You are referring to those small(3000Points) E:A forces
which are more a tiny scale WH40K armies.
Thats one of the big points why I do not like E:A
its a tournament ruleset which allows/forces you to build up several but not big armies

This do not represent 6mm wargaming IMO
3K-6K are still small forces
I think with 6mm scale you can (and should) build up bigger armies

None of my Epic armies has less than 500 men
A Space Marine Chapter has 1000 men+ and is not an unrealistic aim

Now I try to build up an Imperial Guard tank regiment which will field about 140 tanks, 60 APCs and about 50 artillery pieces
Even while being a tank regiment it will field 600-700 men
Author:  CyberShadow [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
I think that the place where scale is wrong, is in the fluff, to be honest. Writers and GW background writers are always trying to make their engines bigger and badderer than any others. If they just realigned the hypothetical height of a Warlord titan and the others, to be in line with the Epic miniatures, it would change very little and make it all match up nicely.
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
ulric wrote:
Thats one of the big points why I do not like E:A
its a tournament ruleset which allows/forces you to build up several but not big armies


Partially agree with that. It's my favorite minis game, but the scale of the forces involved aren't especially epic.

But like carlos says, 1-1 representation (which all games produced by GW ever uses, no matter if they threw in "1 model is 10 men" in some edition of Warhammer) for anything above 2mm is a skirmish game, or a small battle only if it's representing a period where armed forces are small sized in the background (that is, not the 40k background).

Funnily enough I just had this discussion on a norwegian minis board - somebody claimed that you could play anything from a skirmish to large battles using Warmachine.
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is 6mm the wrong scale?
When you start getting into consistent scaling between the models, something is going to give. For WWII or other era wargaming, it isn't a problem because the 'large' things are realistically large, not obscenely large like in Epic. Face it, a titan would stand a better chance of collapsing into a sinkhole and be destroyed than being destroyed by enemy fire. And the Imperator might actually create earthquakes and open up fissures in the ground when it walks.

If you want to see how nuts consistent scaling gets, look at Spartan Games and their 1:1200 Dystopian Wars line. They have land carriers that are 6 inches long, frigates that are 1-2 inches long, and infantry is so small they are just represented as counters.
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