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Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=6614		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
Reading through a couple of threads got me thinking. Often people have asked for points values for stuff like Imperator Titans, Mega Gargants etc. While some of these collector's models are having points values assigned as the various armylists delevop there will still be models which remain in the shadows.
The "Count as" section of the rule book will probably be good guidelines for the rough points value but for those who want things to be a bit more accurate:

Of course assigning points values also depend to a certain degree on the composition of the formation they're to be a part of, so any points values would still be approximates.

So: Anybody up for compiling an unofficial collector's model list with approximate points values?



The completely unofficial "Collector's Models" points value compendium


Imperial armies

Titans

Imperator titan ? ? ? ? ?1500 (possibly a bit more)
Warmonger Titan (?)
Psi Titan (?)
Forge World titans are probably covered by the AMTL list?

Imperial Guard

Forge World Baneblade
Capitol Imperialis (Might have a look at the AMTL list)
Heavy Bolter Chimera           - 25 each
Plasma Cannon Chimera           - 25 each
Heavy Flamer Chimera           - 25 each
Earthshaker Weapon Platform          -65 points, or 3/250 w/ 3 Trojans
Gorgon           - 50
Hellbore (Rulebook rules or possibly a new more interesting set of stats?)
Hydra Weapon platform
IG Assault Troops          15
IG Beastmen          15
IG Bike           15
IG Robot (Variants?)          25
Leman Russ Conqueror          50 points (maybe less?)
Leman Russ Destroyer          50 points (maybe less?)
Leman Russ Executioner          50 points (maybe less?)
Leman Russ Thunderer          50 points (maybe less?)
Leviathan
Lightning
Lightning Strike fighter
Manticore Weapon Platform          65 points, or 3/250 w/ 3 Trojans
Marauder Destroyer (Different stats between SG and FW Marauders too?)
Medusa
Mole
Mole Mortar               25
Rapier (Siegemaster or rulebook stats officialness?)          25
Salamander Command - 25 each
Salamander Scout - 25-30 each
Stormblade (mars ptrn ie. metal version)
Stormblade FW version
Stormhammer
Stormsword
Tarantula           25
Termite
Thudd Gun (Again siegemaster or Rulebook stats?)     25
Trojan           ? 15-20 points


Eldar Armies

Bright Stallion
Fire Gale
Towering Destroyer
Exarch stand
Harlequins
Lascannon platform
Vibrocannon platform
Warlock stand

Orks

Megagargant ? ? ? ? ?1400?  (lowest 1300, highest 1500)

Chaos

Tyranids

These are the models which currently have a more or less official stats line published. Later on we could extend the list to also include statlines for models not covered in the current rules (More detailed Ork vehicles etc.)

Cheers!  :8):
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I'd say take it to the Epicomms EA project area.
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
Yes good idea WMN, and lets do as NH says.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I like this idea so much, I am even moving this thread to the board. This could be a very useful document.
Author:  Heresiarch [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
This sounds like a grand idea WMN. :D

Count me in on it.
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I'm not much of a number cruncher so the actual assigning of points values is probably better left for someone else to figure out. I'll go through the various "Collectors models" sections later tonight and compile a list of the models in question. Then we can assign or correct the points values as people send i their opinions.

Cheers! :)
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
We playtested the Imperator Titan a couple times at 1500 points against an equal amount of 1500 points and it loses every time.

The points worked out that it should be around that number, but it continually lost and couldn't hold up.

That doesn't mean I know what it should be, just saying, against another flexable force of equal amount, it didn't appear to hold up like one would expect it too.

Maurader Destroy - take a look at latest AMTL


Earthshaker Weapon Platform
Hydra Weapon platform
Manticore Weapon Platform

- how much is mobility worth to these formations? Well, I've used both of the chassis bodied variants for land grab before, but typically, they sit back and fire away. I've even used the heavy bolter mount on each tracked vehicle before... that said, how much is mobility and heavy bolter loss worth? Probably in the neighborhood of 20-25% point reduction if you use 40K percentage differences as a starting point.


Leman Russ Conqueror
Leman Russ Destroyer
Leman Russ Executioner
Leman Russ Thunderer

- these exist in 40K and you can generate a basis of 'percentage points difference' from the 40K variants vs. the LRMBT. From there, you should be able to extrapolate back to epic for a 'guideline' of percentage of points adjustment compared to the E:A LRMBT unit. It would at least afford a place to start.

Stormblade (mars ptrn ie. metal version)
Stormblade FW version
Stormhammer
Stormsword

- same as above, use Baneblade as the basis in 40K, figure the percentage of points variance in 40K, use the same percentage dealta from the E:A baneblade to get a rough stab at where to start. (same with all FW vehicles that exist in 40K)

Now, one would have to consider losses of the new variants and their relative value in comparison to the existing unit types and see if further 'tweaking' is necessry to make the units either balanced/fair or more appealing/valuable/worth taking.

Love this idea guys - that's all I have to offer!

Cheers,
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
Sounds like a worthy venture !   We could look into but let's not "reinvent the wheel" ... and IMO the Siegemasters (DoK) rules should supercede the original rules for Thud Guns & Rapiers ... :D
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
Is there an electronic version of the appendices available?  I was going to work on this a bit and went to get an e-copy for ease of use, but the appendices are not in the rulebook pdfs.
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values


Hmph... looked all through my old and current downloads. I can't find an electroic copy of these.

I could scan them in and make a PDF via a copier here at work, but couldn't do that today.

Hmm...
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I haven't used an Imperator Titan under E:A rules more than a couple of thimesw and that is a lng time ago. 1500 points sounds about right for the stats given in the E:A rulebook. If a version is developed for the AMTL list we probably need to adjust accordingly.

I've seen the Megagargant at 1400 points but haven't really playtested that as such. It might be a bit much compared to the Imperator or?

FW Russ variants: How does the lack of Bolter sponsons and the different main gun compare to a standard Russ? The main gun seems more powerfull in some instances but does that compensate for the lack of sponsons. Also does the speed for the FW tanks sound right? 30 cm is pretty fast!

The Russ Thunderer is clearly inferior to the Demolisher: Main gun is the same but the Thunderer lacks the Plasma Gun sponsons.

FW Baneblades: Same thing with the extra 2 Hvy Bolters. How much is these weapons worth?

Cheers! :)
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
The only way I would suggest this is to start in 40K (weapon level stats) figure out percentages of weapons for a vehicle of unit at that systems points value... then use the same percentages over in E:A for a starting point.

THESE ARE GIVENS
===========================================
40K Demolisher = 185 per tank
E:A Demolisher = 67 per tank

40K Thunder S Tank = 140

NOTE: 40K Thunder S Tank = 76% of the 40K Demolisher points


WE USE THE ABOVE TO COME UP WITH THIS
===========================================
E:A Thunder S Tank = 40K percent * E:A Demolisher
E:A Thunder S Tank = .76 * 67
E:A Thunder S Tank = 51 points per tank or 153 for three (round to nearst 25 point incriment)
E:A Thunderer Siege Tank = 150/formation

Using the same math comparisons...
=====================================
E:A Chimera = 25 points
E:A Chimera w/autocannon w/ flamer hull = 26 points
E:A Chimera w/autocannon w/ Heavy Bolter hull = 26 points
(so rounding to nearest 25 point incriment, the chimera is going to be the same for any variant!)


THESE ARE INTERESTING
====================================
40K Earthshaker = 125
E:A Earthshaker = 83
E:A Earthshaker Platform = 66 points, or 200 /formation

40K Manticore = 140
E:A Manticore = 83
E: Manticore Platform = 66 points, or 200 /formation



REST OF THIS IS JUST INFORMATIONAL:
==============================
Math wizards will figure out that the above shows the Earthshaker is too expensive in Epic Armageddon. The Manticore and Earthshaker should not be the same points in E:A as they are not the same points in 40K. I think most will agree, that like in 40K, the Manticore is stronger in Epic. Epic Armageddon's points don't reflect that.

By my math, the Basalisk tank to Manticore tank difference in 40K is 89.2% in total points and therefore the Earthshaker in E:A should be somewhere about the same delta. That would put the Basalisk tank at about 74 points per model or 222 per formation. Rounding up, that would be 225 points per Formation of Basalisks in E:A while the Manticore remained at 250 points per E:A formation. ?:o0

However, that's not the case... so since somebody values the Earthshaker at the same value as Manticores in epic, they work out the same in value for platform conversion.

***IF the powers that be took the 89.2 % variance from 40K into account when making the manticore tank and basalisk, we could also take the 91% difference into account when making the platforms in E:A...

40K Earthshaker Platform = 100
E:A Earthshaker Platform = 60 (rounding to closest 25 point incriment) 175 / formation

40K Manticore Platform = 110
E:A Platform = 66 (round to closest 25 point incriment) 200 / formation.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
The only way I would suggest this is to start in 40K (weapon level stats) figure out percentages of weapons for a vehicle of unit at that systems points value...


We want their value compared to other Epic units.   Relative points values in 40K may or may not be relevant because the effectiveness of abilities can be radically different in different scales.

Why go back to potentially irrelevant 40K values when we have a large body of established Epic point values which already take into account the differences in scale?
Author:  CyberShadow [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I agree that the easiest, and possibly most stable ground, for this is to allign the 'collectors units' with their nearest related unit in the EA rules. I suggest that we take a full list, and break it into sections by function. This way, we could discuss (for example) all of the transports together, allowing us to keep the values in perspective, and relate the transport to units such as the Rhino and Chimera. We could then ensure that these values are as sensible as we can make them before moving on to the next group, to avoid the issue of a points value compared to a unit which has a points value based on a unit... etc

Thanks.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values
I agree ... for example ... the Medusa = Griffon ... IMO ... :D
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