Tactical Command
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Air transport breaking before an assault
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=29315		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Air transport breaking before an assault
In this game, we encountered a situation that I do not think I have seen before.

A Iyanden Vampire declared a ground assault on a unit of Biel Tan Rangers while also embarking a formation of 4x Wraith Guard. While making it's approach, the Vampire comes under fire from Fire Prisms which causes 1 damage and 2x BM.

The Vampire is fine while it is in the air, but as soon as it lands it becomes a ground formation and would therefore become broken. Usually under these circumstances, the assault would not occur and the Vampire would die as it cannot withdraw. However, in this case the Vampire is embarking the Wraith Guard formation as it lands, thus potentially raising the formation to 6 which means that it is no longer broken by 2x BM.

So, this boils down to the order in which things occur when the Transport touches down;
  1. Does the Vampire break on Landing before it embarks the troops, thus preventing the assault?
  2. Does the Vampire embark the troops as part of its movement, thus avoiding becoming broken?
  3. Is the Vampire prevented from landing and carrying out the ground assault because the 2x BM it carries would break and destroy it on landing. If so, can it shoot instead?
    (We discounted this option in this particular case though it needs to be answered for other situations.)

I might add that TSKNF prevents this occurring in Marine Transport, though an Ork Landa could hit the same situation
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
At the time of landing the embarked units and the flyer are considered one formation so I would not think it breaks in your example.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
As a WE transporting troops into a combined assault, I would treat the entire "formation" as a single formation for BM/breaking purposes until the end of the assault.

So for me it's #2, it has troops as part of its formation during the approach move, and it becomes a normal WE transport when on the ground, the rules for which state how the formation is to be treated as a single formation until after the engagement has concluded for numbers purposes.

Quote:
I might add that TSKNF prevents this occurring in Marine Transport, though an Ork Landa could hit the same situation

I suppose disrupt AA fire could also do it to a Marine aircraft, if any existed.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
from 4.2.5 (emphasis mine)

" The aircraft and any units that disembark are treated as a single formation for the duration of the assault, in the same manner as units disembarking from a war engine taking an engage action (see 3.1.3). If the aircraft loses the assault it is destroyed, but any units that have disembarked may withdraw normally"
Author:  Dave [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
A few of these are handled here:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#aircraft

1) I don't think so, it and what's inside is a single formation when the Vampire activates until the activation is over (as per 3.1.3).
2) Moot as per 1.
3) Not prevented, although you could choose not to land and shoot instead as you declare a "Ground Attack" and decide to land after you make an approach move, and to assault after you land.

It would be broken after the assault though (and would be destroyed if within 15cm of the enemy).
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Guys, I think you all missed the point :) .
At the point of activation the Vampire is *empty*, and remains so until it lands. So, at the point of landing the (empty) Vampire has 2x BM which would normally break it . . .

The question is really whether embarking troops takes place as part of the aircraft move, which I think may be the case, but wanted to clarify. If so, I agree that the Vampire becomes a 6x strong formation at the end of it's movement (on the ground) so remains unbroken - and can continue the assault.

Thanks for the option not to land Dave, which I think is correct and fair. You should note that when a formation becomes broken it immediately ceases its activity and must withdraw. In the case of OW fire, this prevents an assault from taking place, and I believe it is the same here where the transport becomes broken on landing - so the assault fizzles - and since the broken transport cannot withdraw it is destroyed.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Ginger wrote:
The question is really whether embarking troops takes place as part of the aircraft move, which I think may be the case, but wanted to clarify. If so, I agree that the Vampire becomes a 6x strong formation at the end of it's movement (on the ground) so remains unbroken - and can continue the assault.

My thought is that it would break as it lands and die.
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Tiny-Tim wrote:
Ginger wrote:
The question is really whether embarking troops takes place as part of the aircraft move, which I think may be the case, but wanted to clarify. If so, I agree that the Vampire becomes a 6x strong formation at the end of it's movement (on the ground) so remains unbroken - and can continue the assault.

My thought is that it would break as it lands and die.


I'd agree with Tim becuase the rules only state "disembarking troops" count as being part of the formation for the duration of the assault.

Quote:
Air Assault:
Transport aircraft may choose to land as
described above, and then it and any units that disembark are
allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting. If this option is
chosen then the aircraft and any units that disembark may enter
enemy zones of control as if they were charging. The aircraft
and any units that disembark are treated as a single formation
for the duration of the assault, in the same manner as units
disembarking from a war engine taking an engage action (see
3.1.3). If the aircraft loses the assault it is destroyed, but any
units that have disembarked may withdraw normally.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Heh, ya didn't catch that they were being picked up.

As above, Vamp breaks when it lands. I'm assume it would be able to suck up those troops within 5cm if you want (assuming it didn't get destroyed). Although I doubt you'd want to as a hack down hit would destroy it and cause everything inside to make a save.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
LoL, thought so Dave ;)

However, I do not think we have addressed the timing of embarkation, which I still think it is very unclear either way. The air section on transporting units (4.2.5) refers to WE transports 3.1.3 which is not really helpful in this particular case. However these two sections override parts of the basic rules, and it has been a long established principle that these stand where not overridden or replaced (as in 1.7.5).

In this case 1.7.5 says that the transport moves over the unit, picking it up as it moves which potentially makes this form of embarkation part of the transport's move. If we adopt this interpretation the embarkation happens first preventing the air transport from breaking, which would also be consistent with the quote on disembarking troops still being part of the assault formation.

However if we deem it to be broken on landing, the transport cannot carry out its intended ground attack (shooting or assault) so I definitely think it only fair to allow the player to convert the ground assault to an airborne 'ground assault' (declaring that the LZ is too hot :D ).

Or as a 'fun' alternative, we could leave it as a decision that is diced for adding further tension to the situation as the transport pilot decides whether he is feeling brave (or lucky) D

Either way, I definitely think the answer should form an FAQ.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
I don't think the 1.7.5 bit about moving over the unit is relevant, since this bit is overriden by both the 3.1.3 rules for WEs (i.e. that's not how units embark on WEs - they do it by moving onto them) and the aircraft rules, which specify a different method (i.e. pick up units within 5cm).

The bits I see relevant and problematic are:
Quote:
After the aircraft has landed ... the aircraft may pick up any friendly units within 5cms

Quote:
Once landed, the aircraft is treated in all ways as a ground unit with a speed of 0

Quote:
Transport aircraft may choose to land as described above, and then it and any units that disembark are allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting

All occur after landing. This is the order they are written in the rulebook, but which is first? The only thing that is clear is that the assault part must be after the disembark/embark part, since the rules explicitly state "it and any units that disembark are allowed to...".

I would also throw out there that the check for broken is also not necessarily made when people commonly do it:

Quote:
1.13.2 Becoming Broken
Check to see if a formation is broken after it receives any Blast markers (either from failing an Action test, shooting or winning an assault). Formations that lose an assault are automatically broken.
So "technically" an aircraft doesn't become broken at the moment it converts into a ground unit - only at the moment it receives another blast marker. I choose to ignore this though, as it is VERY wonky. As written a vampire that lands with 2 BM and wins an assault still wouldn't be broken.
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Ginger wrote:
However, I do not think we have addressed the timing of embarkation, which I still think it is very unclear either way. The air section on transporting units (4.2.5) refers to WE transports 3.1.3 which is not really helpful in this particular case. However these two sections override parts of the basic rules, and it has been a long established principle that these stand where not overridden or replaced (as in 1.7.5).

The embarkation happens before the assault takes place, from 4.2.5
Quote:
. After the aircraft has landed,
any units being transported may disembark and are placed
within 5cms of the transport aircraft (skimmers and units with
jump packs can be placed within 15cms, to represent them
dropping from the aircraft as it comes in to land).
Alternatively, the aircraft may pick up any friendly units within
5cms, assuming they will fit on board of course. After
embarking or disembarking any units, the aircraft may carry
out its ground attack. Note that the limitations that apply to
units disembarking from a war engine transport vehicle also
apply to units disembarking from an aircraft (ie, they can’t take
an action on the turn they disembark but can shoot with the
aircraft – see 3.1.3)



Quote:
In this case 1.7.5 says that the transport moves over the unit, picking it up as it moves which potentially makes this form of embarkation part of the transport's move. If we adopt this interpretation the embarkation happens first preventing the air transport from breaking, which would also be consistent with the quote on disembarking troops still being part of the assault formation.

The problem with that is 1.7.5 is about transport vehicles that are part of the formation already and carrying units from it's own formation. 3.1.3 covers WE transports and carrying units from a different formation.
According to 3.1.3 only troops that have disembarked are considered part of the WE Transports formation for the duration of its action.
From 3.1.3
Quote:
Formations that dismount in this way may not take an action in
the turn they dismount, but are allowed to either shoot or fight
in an assault if the war engine that was transporting it is able to
shoot or assault. in both cases, the war engine and the
transported units are treated as a single formation until the
shooting attack or assault has been resolved. The war engine
and the formation that disembarked are treated as being
separate formations once the war engine has completely
resolved its action.


Quote:
However if we deem it to be broken on landing, the transport cannot carry out its intended ground attack (shooting or assault) so I definitely think it only fair to allow the player to convert the ground assault to an airborne 'ground assault' (declaring that the LZ is too hot :D ).


I agree, with a reading of the rules, Flak attacks happen before landing and as technically a player should say "ground Attack" as an activation not "air assault" there should be no reason to fully abort the ground attack. In this situation the Air Transport should be allowed to just stay airborne and finish its "ground attack" with shooting.


Quote:
Either way, I definitely think the answer should form an FAQ.


certainly looks as though it needs one.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
dptdexys wrote:
According to 3.1.3 only troops that have disembarked are considered part of the WE Transports formation for the duration of its action.
From 3.1.3
Quote:
Formations that dismount in this way may not take an action in
the turn they dismount, but are allowed to either shoot or fight
in an assault if the war engine that was transporting it is able to
shoot or assault. n both cases, the war engine and the
transported units are treated as a single formation until the
shooting attack or assault has been resolved. The war engine
and the formation that disembarked are treated as being
separate formations once the war engine has completely
resolved its action.

I was going to post this too as it actually calls into question the entire principle of units counting towards the WE's break point whilst they are inside, but having read it a few times I think it is ambiguous enough that you could say that they do. Because "in both cases" doesn't have to mean "in only these two cases", especially since it refers to "the transported units" not "the disembarked units". In this way you'd read the part about treating them as part of the same formation as an exception, i.e. it is saying "when units disembark, don't split the formation up yet, wait until the end of the action". In that reading, the fact that the transported and transporting units are counted as the same formation whilst they are inside is implied rather than stated.

All very messy.
Author:  Onyx [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Noted.
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air transport breaking before an assault
Kyrt wrote:
I was going to post this too as it actually calls into question the entire principle of units counting towards the WE's break point whilst they are inside, but having read it a few times I think it is ambiguous enough that you could say that they do. Because "in both cases" doesn't have to mean "in only these two cases", especially since it refers to "the transported units" not "the disembarked units". In this way you'd read the part about treating them as part of the same formation as an exception, i.e. it is saying "when units disembark, don't split the formation up yet, wait until the end of the action". In that reading, the fact that the transported and transporting units are counted as the same formation whilst they are inside is implied rather than stated.

All very messy.


For what it's worth, that's how I'd read the rule anyway, because it's in a paragraph that only talks about dismounting. I wasn't aware that people consider transported troops to count as part of the WE formation for any other purposes...
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