This was a huge topic when raiders was in the works. Mw4+ made the minervans killer.

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Dave

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Squats 2019-10-17

If the addition of one more MW unit pushes them OTT then perhaps we should tone down the Minervans...

One unit that could be 100% of your army.

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Dave

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NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I have been speaking to Onyx about this as well. I like Vindicators and I want to us ethem with my Marines but they just dont bring anything to the table that I want at the moment.

1. MW would be great for Marines as it will tone down on how often Warhounds are used ... but Demolishers exist with other lists. And it fit swith how devastating a cannon they are but there are outside balance issues to consider
2. Adding disrupt could be a great starting point combined with IC
3. If vindicators in the Marine list had the option to take the vincator upgrade I could see dropping 275pts on 5 of them instead of a warhound.
4. make them AP 3+ /AT 3+ not as good as a MW but gives a bit more bite against AV

LR Thunderers are going to love this.

IMO the Demolisher cannon is a quite scary weapon, right on the edge of being MW. IC + Disrupt seems also as a very good representation of the Demolisher power against bunkers (IC), infantry (IC+Disrupt) and armour (Disrupt).

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Keeping a close eye on this development, I'd love to get vindicators in my list as i love the model for them, but at the moment everyone is right they don't really justify taking them.

I agree with the idea to trial them with the IC Disrupt rule first and see if that gives them a place in the list

Yeah thinking this is the only road open to start with but still grates on me that it'll give Chaos and IG lists a boost as well

Still, the Marine list Vindicator is my focus so I have to move forward regardless of what occurs in other lists.

Yes, IC and Disrupt is ok for starting. And it should be the end too.

The other option of course is to try the somewhat radical suggestion from Tim to lower them to 25 points. (See now very long marine thread.)

I really think we're over starting the effectiveness of making this a MW. Multiple lists can already take MW by the truck load but don't. A company of demolisher tanks is probably a points sink that is going to be ignored or dislocated by a good opponent. Can we just trial them at MW4+, consider the plasma gun nerf if required. SM and CSM armies are not going to sweep to power on the back of this one change. Most of the time the standard tanks are more effective due to better range or mobility or both.

IMHO, adding disrupt or making them cheaper won't really fix players concerns, one, because they'll still stuck or they won't "feel" right and we'll be back at this discussion in 12 months time when some one says "hey 40k stats suggest this should be a MW..."

Well, unfortunately I disagree. I wrote a much longer note here about the same thing.

There are effectively two issues, matching the 'fluff' and the use / effects in the game. To me, this is yet another example of 'power creep' where people argue for bigger and better effects, using the 'fluff' to back the argument, without clear agreement on the likely in-game results.

Indeed you can argue that the role of the Demolisher Cannon is best described as a large HE shell lobbed at close quarters against fortifications. In this it is a more 'conventional' style weapon than the typical 'Macro' weapon. So while it has IC, adding Disrupt is probably sufficient to 'describe' its effects.

I very, very strongly disapprove of any change to the Demolisher Cannon, it's fine as is and this is a huge unwarranted change.

Demolisher Cannons are found on seven existing epic units used in many, many different IG, SM, CSM and LaTD lists. Fix Vindicators on their own the simplest way (drop to 200 points) - please don't globally alter the Demolisher as this affects all the other units and lists using them fine with no need of a change.

From the 40K wiki:
The Demolisher Cannon used by Vindicators fires a special siege shell, consisting of an armour-piercing tip, heavier shell casing and a massive explosive charge micro-fused to allow penetration of a building or bunker before detonating.

Could be a reasonable way to explain an adjustment to the Marine and Chaos lists at least.... And given there are 24 variant patterns.

Just still not sure what with

Sounds more like Lance

Guys, trial does not mean rubber stamp. All we've done so far is write pages of for and against..

I'm happy to be wrong on the demolisher, but I would like to see some evidence either way.

GlynG, you seem to think it's fine, great. Others complain the bane blade is sub par. I've run vindicators for most of this year because I like the model but I think they're a waste of points. Others complain warhounds are a auto pick for marines but then shout down any changes to tinker with the marine stats.. Clearly not everyone is happy.

A trial allows the generation of evidence to support arguments. After a year or however long, the ERC can make a call or recommendation..

What are the seven affected units? Best to state them so everyone is clear.