Tactical Command
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The "skimming" Powerfist
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=23294		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon May 21, 2012 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  The "skimming" Powerfist
Had an argument on the german Epic board about this.

1. If a unit of Space Marine Terminators is in Base Contact with an Eldar Wave Serpent and the Eldar player chooses to force to FF...
can the Terminator unit use its MW-Extra Attack as it IS in Base Contact with the Wave Serpent even if forced to use his FF value (yes it's the same as his CC value but this isn't the point)?

The FAQ says:
Quote:
Q: If a Skimmer uses its ability to force units in base-to-base contact with it to use their FF ability are the units considered to be no longer in base-to-base contact?
A: No. The ability does not change the status of the units. So even if the Skimmer uses its FF value in the assault the Skimmer and any units that were in base-to-base with it are still considered to be in base-to-base.


2. Another example:
Two units of Terminators. One is in Base Contact with an Eldar Guardian unit the other with a Wave Serpent. The one contacting the Guardians hit's with his MW-EA. The Eldar player can choose to allocate this hit to the Wave Serpent, correct?
Author:  carlos [ Mon May 21, 2012 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
1.
I asked that a while ago - viewtopic.php?f=69&t=20048

2.
If the WS is still there, as normal hits are saved before allocating the MW ones.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon May 21, 2012 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
@Carlos. It is assumed that the "normal hit" phase is already done. We are now in the MW-Phase.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon May 21, 2012 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
When a Skimmer 'rises off the ground' to force the opponent to use his FF attacks, it is no longer in B-B for the purposes of the actual combat, but it would still be classed as 'closest' when considering hit allocation. Where there are two or more targets that are equally close, the defender may choose where to place each hit. So, to answer your questions:-

  1. No, the Terminator cannot use his MW extra attack as the skimmer is no longer considered to be a CC target.
  2. Yes, when allocating hits from the 'pool' of hits, both the Guardian and Wave Serpent would be considered 'closest'. As 'Normal' hits are allocated and processed first, if there was only 1x 'normal' hit, the defender may choose to allocate it on the Wave Serpent. If it passes that save, the Defender may then choose to allocate the MW to the Wave Serpent as well.

The reasoning behind this is that the men of each stand are not actually in the physical positions represented by the stand, any more than the skimmer which has raised a few feet above the head of the enemy to get out of reach; for the purposes of the game they are both fighting very near the enemy and equally likely to be hit (from the hit allocation point of view).
Author:  Ginger [ Mon May 21, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
Note, this is similar to the question of the 'flying' MW attack;
Assume there is a Terminator unit in B-B with a Guardian unit, with another guardian nearby. Here the 'normal' hit is applied to the unit in B-B and then the MW hit is allocated to the nearest target even though it is not actually in B-B. As before, it is assumed that the stand is only generally representative of the Terminators actual positions, and in this case the Terminators are actually moving forwads, swatting Guardians as they go. So although the MW hit was generated by being in B-B, it is actually allocated elsewhere and not lost.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon May 21, 2012 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
I concur fully with Ginger.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon May 21, 2012 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
I too. :)
Author:  Iron Duke [ Mon May 21, 2012 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
the FAQ is not with Ginger (2.1.13 Skimmer)

Q: If a Skimmer uses its ability to force units in base-to-base contact with it to use their FF ability are the units considered to be no longer in base-to-base contact?
A: No. The ability does not change the status of the units. So even if the Skimmer uses its FF value in the assault the Skimmer and any units that were in base-to-base with it are still considered to be in base-to-base.

as the powerfist is a base to base weapon it still works..
Author:  Steve54 [ Mon May 21, 2012 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
No it can't, the skimmer is considered to be in base to base for allocation of hits(ie it is the closest unit) and for pinning transported units inside (eg stormtroopers in a valkyrie). It is not in CC anymore, it is now in FF so both units use their FF attacks
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon May 21, 2012 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
Iron Duke wrote:
the FAQ is not with Ginger (2.1.13 Skimmer)

...

as the powerfist is a base to base weapon it still works..

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the FAQ.
Author:  carlos [ Tue May 22, 2012 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
Iron Duke wrote:
the FAQ is not with Ginger (2.1.13 Skimmer)

Please read here, same question, same answers and lots of justification.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue May 22, 2012 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
Not unusual given the woeful wording of a lot of the rules.... By Iron Duke's posting I read it that way as well. It often feels like the rules boffins are making things up as an inner circle(not saying they are BTW).
Author:  pixelgeek [ Tue May 22, 2012 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  The "skimming" Powerfist
Dobbsy wrote:
By Iron Duke's posting I read it that way as well. It often feels like the rules boffins are making things up as an inner circle(not saying they are BTW).


That ruling came from the original Epic development and was part of the FAQ that Jervis approved. It's a fairly old ruling.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Tue May 22, 2012 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  The "skimming" Powerfist
Ginger wrote:
Note, this is similar to the question of the 'flying' MW attack;
Assume there is a Terminator unit in B-B with a Guardian unit, with another guardian nearby. Here the 'normal' hit is applied to the unit in B-B and then the MW hit is allocated to the nearest target even though it is not actually in B-B. As before, it is assumed that the stand is only generally representative of the Terminators actual positions, and in this case the Terminators are actually moving forwads, swatting Guardians as they go. So although the MW hit was generated by being in B-B, it is actually allocated elsewhere and not lost.


This resolution system came about so as to avoid units with MW CC attacks losing their hits if the models they were in b2b with we're eliminated by non MW hits.

Once the formation is able to get into Assault it is assumed that the combat devolves into something a lot less orderly than the nice arrangement of stands on the table.

Being in b2b or not really only determines what combat values a unit can use in the Assault. So if the Terminator stand makes it not b2b then it can use its CC values.

The skimmer rule is an exception to this which allows the skimmer owner to force a unit to use its FF value. So you assault your opponents Termies with units with the Skimmer ability and force the Termies to not use their more useful CC value.

The skimmer unit ability just circumvents the usual determination of which combat value a model uses. It does nothing else.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue May 22, 2012 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The "skimming" Powerfist
Actually part of the effect of the FAQ is to clarify how units in B2B do lose their ZoC for engagement purposes even if they "skim".

It has nothing to do with allowing CC Extra Attacks to suddenly get to use the firefight rating!!
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