Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

NetEA Approved Status requirements

 Post subject: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:39 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9525
Location: Worcester, MA
One more, again ACs and ERC please let this run until Friday before chiming in.

What sort of requirements should a list be exposed to before it is deemed "NetEA Approved"?

I'm looking for prerequisites, process, evaluation criteria or anything else you can think of. Once more, what happens once the list is approved? How is it changed, updated, etc. There's already some language defining Approved in the compendium, but I'm interested in how it's achieved.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2455
Location: Cardiff, wales
It should be tested to breaking point

Not just different people chiming in with opinions, not just a few honorable play tests.

Somebody, not the AC/writer, should sit down and methodically go through all of the options, their roles, competition for these roles, obvious combos, non-obvious combos and basically try and play the list in the most unfair, unfun manner possible.

Oh, and they should post their thoughts - it'll be very helpful for the ERC in assessment, helpful for the AC if tweaks are needed and very helpful for new players (seeing as it'd be a foundation tactica).

To actually reach approved status, the list should be stable, clearly written, and balanced enough that you could easily play with a stranger.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:21 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Thompson, MB, Canada
Thoroughly tested with balanced results. Basically what maddoctor said.

There should also be an expectation that little or not change will take place in the future - Approved lists should be fairly stable.

Will we be talking about Development status at some point?

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:31 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9525
Location: Worcester, MA
We can if people would like to, go ahead on this thread if you like.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:21 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Thompson, MB, Canada
Regarding Development, I think it's become too broad (though this may have reversed somewhat). A lot of lists currently listed as Development seem like perhaps they should be Approved. The Salamanders just made Approved, for example. I think they've been balanced for some time. I think it'd be good to avoid such bottlenecks in future. :)

Regarding Experimental: some lists have been excluded because they're evidently not up to the standards of Experimental (yes, I'm looking at your Chem-Dogs, Dave :)). I thought the whole point of Experimental was to include things that weren't really up to much in the way of standards yet?

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:59 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:16 pm
Posts: 4682
Location: Wheaton, IL
I'm pretty sure part of the Developmental bottleneck is it's up to the individual Sub-AC to submit a list for Approval, thus if the Sub-AC dosen't put the list forward, it isn't considered. At least that's how I understand the system works.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:04 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9525
Location: Worcester, MA
That process is also something that I'd like discussed.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:21 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Thompson, MB, Canada
If people feel the need for more granularity, a fourth category could be added. I think three's probably enough, but more categories might capture list states better.

I think the process should probably be more clearly explained, and made less dependent on the perfectionism of sub-Champs. I'm not sure it's a bad process, though.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:27 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:16 pm
Posts: 4682
Location: Wheaton, IL
Well the main things that need to happen are testing and testing. Specifically there should be stress tests of any units that are thought to be overpowered or spammable, and the testing must go on in multiple locales and metagames. If one group does 20+ tests and no one else uses the list it means less to me than one two groups doing ten each, which in turn is less useful than three groups doing six each, etc.

Batreps are the gold standard but (as someone who has too little patience to actually finish typing one of the things up) I'd say that they are preferable, not required. Repitition is more important than detail in these things, IMO. Six batreps is better than six games, but two games is better than one batrep.

One easy way to do the advancement process would be for Steve and Chroma (or whoever are in charge of Human and Xenos at the time) to nominate lists for approval on an annual or semi-annual basis, ideally as part of the process that updates the compendium. AC's would decide which lists were ready to advance, and submit them to their ERC representative, who would then be able to weed out lists they felt were not ready to advance. Then the Human and Xenos ERC reps would submit the remaining lists to the full ERC for a vote.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:21 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Thompson, MB, Canada
Why not just have them all get voted on? There's not THAT many lists...

Also, perhaps the respective ACs should get to vote with the NetERC in their particular area?

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
the way i see it as working (or how it should work) is roughly as follows:

Experimental:
New lists. this is where new special rules and some more extreme units should be found. at this stage, the list developer should be performing numerous small edits as needed, and playtesting rigerously in order to reach the stability of developmental if they intend for the list to reach that level. if not, they should be upfront that the list is intended to be experimental. beyond that, this category is the "do anything you want" category, and as such, should have no real restrictions at all.

Developmental:
Lists under Development. Developmental lists should be relatively stable, they should have most of their special rules and units pretty much sorted out. the list should be balanced enough that friendly games and more permissive tournaments wouldnt have any trouble including them. they can have units that are under testing, but most of the list should be 'about right'
being this is the majority of lists on taccoms, units within should be open to change and addition or subtraction quite easily. any massive change, would naturally bump the list back into experimental.
in order to be classed as developmental. the list developer and army champion should discuss the list, with consultation with the ERC member who oversees the area. the list should have been playtested numerous times by the list developer, though not necessarily by other groups and metagames as yet. the army champion should probably also have "given it a go" in order to have an idea as to how the list works in practice. that being said, it should be fairly easy to get from experimental to developmental. developmental is where the finetuning and balancing of a list takes place

Approved:
these are the stable, widely accepted and balanced lists. it should have been playtested thoroughly by the list developer, and playtested, with the intent to find exploits and judge playability, by others aswell. preferably from different meta-game groupings. the Army Champion should have playtested the list, as probably should the ERC member who oversees the list.
approved lists can be changed, points adjusted, and units added or removed, by the list developer, but these should be fairly limited, and should undergo a "trial period" before becoming officially approved as well. any large changes made to a list should drop it down from Approved status back to Developmental. the entire ERC, in consultation with the Army Champion and List Developer, should decide if a list is approved. if not, they should provide guidance as to what would need to be done in order to do so.


essentially, experimental for broad strokes, developmental for detailing, approved for tuning and minor adjustments

perhaps there should be a second stage within developmental, but i figure the various people will be able to judge on a case by case basis how to deal with the various levels of "development" that take place within developmental.

as examples of lists within the areas:
i would consider my rusalka hive fleet list to be experimental, ditto with the tanith (although, despite being entirely untested at this point, i'd consider them further along towards developmental than the nids one)
developmental would include my bloody hand list (there are a few units that will undergoe some changes, but i dont imagine any would push it back into experimental, its been playtested quite a bit and most everything works as it should)
in the upper reaches of developmental (at the point where approval should be able to be considered) would be things like the AMTL list
approved lists would be things like the marine and ork lists. they've been around for years and are pretty stable, but can still undergoe tweaking as dobbsy has been doing. (it may be that these changes are enough to drop it into the upper reaches of developmental too)

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: UK
I think Approved should be broadly equivalent to a Games Workshop codex, so that new players have the confidence to use them. They are "finished" lists; that is not to say they will never be changed, only that they are well balanced with other Approved lists and it would not be a big deal for them to stay unchanged for long periods. Basically, you should always be able to point players at the Approved lists and say "use these".

One way of doing this:

An Approved list can only be able to changed maximum once per year, in the Army Compendium. Potential changes must be minor, and should be tested via a Developmental version of the same list. Basically after the release of a Compendium, proposals and testing of changes for the next compendium can begin. When it is time to prepare the next compendium, a developmental list can be submitted, and if it is accepted it becomes the next Approved list. If the changes don't make it in time, they have to wait for the next compendium.

The fact that lists can have both Approved and Developmental versions actually just rationalises what happens now. Instead of confusion about which version of a list people should be pointed to, it should be clear. One thing that would help is that every iteration of a list, no matter how much or little it changes from the last, should have its own document and its own version number, and the versioning should follow a clear scheme to delineate between the different classes of lists. For example, in chronological order:

1.0.0 (experimental)
1.0.1 (experimental)
1.1.0 (development)
1.1.1 (development)
1.1.2 (development, submitted and accepted for approval)
1.2.0 (approved)
1.2.1 (development)
1.2.2 (development)
1.2.3 (development, submitted and accepted for approval)
1.3.0 (approved)
1.3.1 (development, submitted and rejected for approval)
1.3.2 (development, submitted and accepted for approval)
1.4.0 (approved)
2.0.0 (experimental)
2.0.1 (experimental)
...etc

Basically, every time a list changes status it gets a "version promotion". Just an example, but I think it makes sense in that there can be no clashes, and the numbers are meaningful.

As to how to get from Developmental to Approved, I don't really mind about the process. I guess it would make sense for ACs to submit for approval before a predetermined deadline.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:14 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9525
Location: Worcester, MA
I'm seeing a lot of talk on defining the list statuses. To reiterate I'm looking for prerequisites and process.

People say testing. OK, with who/what? Where and how?

SG has laid a process, what are people's thoughts on it?

Kyrt has a few thoughts on what happens once a list is approved, more thoughts on that? Also how is an approved list changed, updated, etc.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:56 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:16 pm
Posts: 4682
Location: Wheaton, IL
My only real wish is that no list become In Development until it has seen playtests in multiple locales. I know I keep harping on it, but I've seen some lists that I really had problems with that were "extensively playtested", but only in a sigle locale/group/meta. With the geographic reach the NetEA project has, it needs to look to as much of it's constituancy as possible for testing to broaden the balance across multiple metas.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Status requirements
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:35 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9525
Location: Worcester, MA
Can you define multiple?

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net