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2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=21806 |
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Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Consider the following situation (Section 2.1.2 below for reference). An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight. The after that, the player retains for the 3rd time, this time using a guardian formation to combine with an aspect formation. Is this test at initiative 1 (from aspects) or 2 (guardians) before modifiers? Quote: 2.1.2 Commanders Some units and characters are noted as being commanders. Commanders can order up to three formations of troops to follow them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit within 5cm of a unit from the commander’s formation. Make a single initiative roll for all the formations, counting a -1 modifier if any have Blast markers. If the test is failed then the commander’s formation receives a Blast marker and must take a hold action, but the other formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in the turn). If the test is passed then all three formations may take an engage action. Treat the three formations as if they were a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attackers lose then each formation is broken. If they win then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the casualties it suffered in the combat. Thoughts? And is the second situation unique to the Eldar? |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Quote: An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight. Unsure, ask again later. Quote: The after that, the player retains for the 3rd time, this time using a guardian formation to combine with an aspect formation. Is this test at initiative 1 (from aspects) or 2 (guardians) before modifiers? The test is taken at the initiative rating of whichever formation is using the commander ability. In this case it's the Guardian formation so the initiative test is taken at 2+. Quote: And is the second situation unique to the Eldar? Guard Commanders could issue orders to join a combined engagement to Titans. |
Author: | yme-loc [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Mephiston wrote: Consider the following situation (Section 2.1.2 below for reference). An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight. Nope because unless a rule specifically says they are a single formation when the test is taken they are not they are multiple formations with the commander ability affecting them. The commander rule is precise in that they only count as the same formation when they are fighting the engagement, not before. Its even precise in its language - if the test is passed all three as in seperate formations take an engage action - then after this they combine into one formation for the purposes of resolving the actual fighting. |
Author: | Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
I'd say use the Initiative of the formation issuing the order, and only include bonuses like Farsight if they are included in the Commander's formation. There are two reasons for this. First is KISS. No figuring out whether to use the best or worst initiative, etc. Second is that if the activation is failed, the other formations are free to activate later. This means, for instance, that an Init 2+ formation can't use an Init 1+ formations value to attempt to activate, but the Init 1+ formation can still activate later in the case of a failure. That would be the same as the 1+ formation "lending out" it's Init. Same with Farsight. A Farseer could potentially use it's Farsight ability twice in a turn if the Aspects failed to Command it. This affects the value of the ability in unpredictable ways. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Quote: So this is going to get an FAQ? Or at least an AQ. :-) |
Author: | Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Rug wrote: These are good points, and I am won over to the "you can't do that" side. But for the sake of discussion I'd point out that: a) You can use another command ability more than once each turn, "Leader". b) Staying with "Leader", the way it behaves for Space Marines also affects the value of the ability. So this is going to get an FAQ? Leader is used more than once per turn, and is worth a different amount to Space Marines due to interaction with ATSKNF, but it always behaves the same way for a formation. It doesn't affect other formations depending on the situation. This simplifies the costing process immensely compared to the potential complexities of allowing Commander to "borrow" other formation's traits. |
Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Q |
I agree that borrowing initiative abilities or even another formations initiative isn't desirable, even if that what was intended with the farsight rule. Does this need an FAQ entry considering it's not appeared as an issue before? |
Author: | Ginger [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
I would agree with others that it is the 'commander' formation that is activating; the other formations are only added if the activation is successfull. So you only consider the initiative and abilities of the formation that is activating. However once the activation is successfull, the formations combine and are then considered a single formation until the end of the assault resolution; so the various attributes and penalties of all the formations get included; so you add together all BMs, Inspiring Characters etc. |
Author: | Dave [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
I agree, the Eldar player should have to take the -1 for retaining if they are doing so with a formation that does not have Farsight on its own. The initiative should be that of the formation as well, not the initiative of other formations it's looking to "commander" in. |
Author: | dptdexys [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
Hope this helps,highlighted what I think is relevant. Quote: Q: Can a Commander give Assault
orders to a several formations even if the Commander himself isn’t in charge range? A: Yes. The Commander issues the orders for the Combined Assault before the charge move is made. If he issues the order successfully (ie, passes his action test), then his formation and the other two are treated as one large formation for the Assault. This would mean that neither the Commander nor any units from his formation would need to get within 15cm of the enemy so long as at least one unit from the combined formation does so. Note that the Commander and the units in his formation would be bound by the coherency rules, so would need to end the charge with at least one unit within 5cm of one unit from at least one of the other formations. |
Author: | dptdexys [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
My reading of the FAQ is that only when the action test is passed are the formations treated as 1 so the Farsight couldn't be used for the -1 in this situation. |
Author: | Mephiston [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
I think that one clear's it up too.....so is a farsight FAQ required to say you can only use it if the formation calling the combined assault is the lead formation? |
Author: | Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar |
No, I think you're approaching it from the worng direction. I think a Commander FAQ is required to clarify that the initiative test is taken on the Commander's formation's initiative, and only using abilities (e.g. Farsight) from that formation. |
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