From the Krieg/Gorgon countercharging discussion...



Agreed on all points. Also, for reference, 1.7.2:

I bolded that sentence because, while it is not hard rule mechanics, it seems to me that it describes the intent of the rule. I think it will be useful for figuring out how to resolve this ambiguous situation. It is the infantry that is assumed to be moving when a friendly unit crosses over them.

Given the barging rules for enemy units and this explanatory note in 1.7.2, it seems reasonable to me to allow shifting of friendly units using the same guidelines as enemy barging when necessary to resolve an ambiguous situation like this.

What do you guys think about that? That would mean...


This makes sense to me. We know the WE can barge the enemy. We know it can move over friendly units. I think it is unfair (and possibly unbalanced) to allow the WE to force a CC attacker to disengage back to FF range once the attacker has initiated CC. Having the friendly unit dragged along for the ride seems like a reasonable method for resolving the situation.


Same as above. Yes to minor moves. No to ripping a friendly unit out of CC.

And yes, this would have to be applied within reason, only for this kind of ambiguous situation, rather than as a technical, across-the-board ruling. Clearly, it would be bad to allow a friendly vehicle to "bump draft" a unit forward beyond its normal move, either in a normal move or in assault. I would expect an infantry unit that's been run over by another unit to be moved to the side rather than forward, even if forward is slightly closer to its original position, where it would be placed per the barge rules.

Seems logical to me.

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My only point comes from 3.3.1 WE Charge moves



So if a WE wants to counter charge, which is a charge move, could it end its movement having only barged friendly units? I believe this is the situation the original poster posted as the Krieg player was barging through unengaged friendly units to ensure any initial hits went on the WE and not troops. (I may have misread that though).

Oh, and a further question, does this mean you can also barge friendly LV's and AV's when counter-charging, since you can barge them when engaging?

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If there is no enemy contact, it's probably a moot point. Just move the WE first and there is no "barge."

The WE can be moved forward as desired and the infantry can then use their countercharge move to adjust accordingly. They can almost certainly follow the technicality of "must move toward the nearest enemy" to the extent needed to adjust for being run over, without actually getting in front of the WE.

No. The infantry aren't being barged per the WE assault rules. We're just trying to figure out how to handle the "may move over friendly infantry" movement rule in a peculiar situation.

There is no comparable allowance for LVs and AVs. If your own vehicles are in the way, you're stuck, just like in any other move.

Agreed, but was just checking to be sure I had it right.

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I don't not believe a War Engine should be able to end it's move on top of friendly infantry (and push them aside).
The FAQ (3.3 War Engine Assaults) clearly states that:


This is complicated further when the friendly infantry are in base contact with enemies. Friendly infantry are not going to be able to move out of the a of the War Engine because they are pinned in place.

What would happen, if say for example, if a Gorgon wished to counter-charge 4 stands of enemy infantry that were in base contact with 4 stands of friendly infantry (the friendly infantry are in between the Gorgon and the enemy infantry). All 8 stands of infantry would have to be moved to some degree to fit the Gorgon in. Would this disallow the Gorgon counter-charge as a max of 6 infantry stands can me barged by a 3DC War Engine?
Also, how does moving the friendly infantry out of the way work with the above quote from the FAQ?

It seems clear to me that a War Engine must be able to move completely over friendly infantry to barge enemy units (which must be able to stay in base contact with their original targets) or it must move around the friendly infantry.

This is a very complicated issue and it has a real bearing on how good mixed War Engine/infantry formations are. Allowing War Engines to always barge through friendly infantry to get to the front of the formation no matter what has a HUGE effect on the game. This removes tactics and makes for predictable outcomes (especially with the huge Krieg infantry formations).

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I really hate the barging rule; it's much too vague and leads to weirdness, and I've never really understood why it's neccesary.

This is an FAQ. They are responses to specific questions and you have to take that into account as part of the context. They are not meant to be parsed out like rule text that is broadly applicable.

In this FAQ, the context is a question about pulling an enemy unit out of formation and the answer is discussed in terms of other unit-enemy interactions. The emphasis would be "only allows the WE to move enemy units" in order to distinguish the barge movement exception from the other unit-enemy interactions which remain in place, i.e. it does not ignore the "countercharge the nearest enemy" or the ZoC/Charge move requirements.


Why would the enemy units have to stay in base contact with the original targets? If the WE must move past the friendly unit because the friendly unit cannot be moved, and barging only allows the WE to move enemy units, then the result is that WEs can and will barge units off the original target.

Based on the way Zone of Control forces a charge move to base contact, a WE would often actually be required to push an enemy unit away on the countercharge. Once the WE enters a new ZoC, it has to close to base contact with that unit. Then the next ZoC and so on, until the WE is out of move or becomes pinned. The friendly unit may not be moved. The enemy unit must follow the WE. Base contact could easily be broken.

For a variety of reasons, but mostly because if a WE had to stop immediately on first contact, CC value would be worthless. A Banelord that can't attack more than one, lone stand is pathetic.

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I'm confused. The first post stated that WE can counter-barge through friendly units but could not push enemy units away from friendly units in CC. The second bit that I quoted seems to imply the opposite (unless it was entirely rhetorical and I'm just not getting it). Could you clarify please?

If you lose the weirdness of War Engines having to split CC and FF attacks then that's not a problem.

You'd have to lose "WE can only allocate CC attacks to CC range and FF attacks to FF range" too.

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That's exactly what I meant.