Tactical Command
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When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleading
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=19575		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleading
Seriously. I'm starting to feel like Epic is becoming a bit of a joke. I dont want to feel that.

This is how I see this situation right now...

"Let's change this. Now let's change that. Wait, but now we've changed that we have to change that because otherwise this will need to be changed and then that effects that and when you do that this will be changed too."

The Marine list is like any other list. It has staple units that people always take. Accept it and please! stop metagaming the system. I implore you. Hell, I beg you.

My point of view:

I've yet to see a Black Legion list without Deathwheels; a Tau list without Skyrays; an Eldar list without wraithguard or jet bikes; Orks without fighterbombers.... the list is endless because good units are needed and people like good units. Everyone takes terminators. Why wouldn't you? They're great. So their points got upped? Why? Simply because they were over used? Marines air assault. It's what they do.

Please can we stop trying to mess with the cost of stuff because some don't see it used or think it's over used in their corner of the world? People in one country aren't the only ones who play this game and others choose different list designs to those in another country/timezone. Sure I understand that the UK is touted as the "hub" of the Epic system and that's possibly a fair point, but please don't assume that it's the one and only country where the opinion matters. Sure the tourney system in the UK is hardcore. Other places it isn't. Please be aware that just because the hardcore tourney scene is in the UK, that the rest of us agree with your view of how the game should be.

Don't get me wrong here , I understand things obviously need some change on the odd occasion. Change is good. And some of the changes put forward are good. But all together the changes just look silly.

How can we ever keep people interested in this game if the lists get changed on a whim (be it a whim or not)? It looks ridiculous. How many people already get confused by "Oh which list are we using now?" or "Oh wait. That's doesn't have the errata in it"? Having this situation with the ruleset is/was bad enough.

If we continue to metagame Epic it will turn into Magic the Gathering <shudder> and that is a bloody sad situation.

Am I the only one who feels this way? I truly hope not.

I'm really sorry if this seems like a rant. I guess it is, but I'm really bummed out by this.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Welcome to the world of open development.
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
If the netEA armies book ever gets done the issue of "wait, what changes are we using?" goes out the window.

If.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
To be fair dobbsey that stuff all appears in the playtesting and changing bit of the forum :) Its kinda the point in a way :) For changes the Tau list is perhaps the best example - radically different now compared to its first few iterations. If you don't like seeing the change discussions perhaps don't read them? Virtually all come to nought as few ideas are without flaws (though I'm rooting for warhound criticals that do more than cause laughs and marines losing the awful half blast marker rule thing - and if you think they were awful before epic uk has stats for both before and after the change, you can also see how the lists changed, you start to see a lot more 'risky' assualt builds as now they have become easier).

People not knowing what list - well thats a different issue and this forum isn't the best place to show what is what and that as its not incorporated into a webpage with static bits that could clearly show that. Stickied threads only do so much.

Quote:
I've yet to see a Black Legion list without Deathwheels; a Tau list without Skyrays; an Eldar list without wraithguard or jet bikes; Orks without fighterbombers.... the list is endless because good units are needed and people like good units. Everyone takes terminators. Why wouldn't you? They're great. So their points got upped? Why? Simply because they were over used? Marines air assault. It's what they do.


Well I'm still a feral man - 2 ferals, 2 braces of helltalons and I'm away. But in short - Black legion - bad - deathwheels are not what I associate as staple chaos marine units - Tau - Good - Intergral Tau flak, it would be bad though if they were using allied firestorms all the time - Eldar - Come to a UK tourney and you will see lists without both, though jetbikes are definatively more popular, in fact go to Epic UK and browse the army lists for stats! - Orks - actually people do go without fighterbombers, though its normally because they are going landa crazy. But still, ork fighterbombers is an iconic ork epic unit. Now marines and warhounds ont he other hand are not an iconic relationship and exists solely due to list power reasons.

(And I have to ask - magic, the game with the cards right - surely it hasn't changed as a quick look online seems to show the cards being very similar!)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
There are currently 7 changes on the table for Marines.

Of those:

1 proposes removing an earlier change (half BM in engagements change)
4 propose taking an earlier change, and pushing it further (points cost modifications)
1 is a new points cost proposal (Tactical formation)
1 is a stat change (Warhound critical) that is not Marine-specific

That's about half the number of changes that the NetEA has made on the Codex Marine list so far, and five of those seven are just dealing in the same areas that have already been tested.


Here's my opinion:
Talking about this being some kind of meta-game led series of proposals is a cheap shot.

Talking about this being some kind of EpicUK shadow-coup is a cheap shot; I'm amongst the foremost calling for (Or, at the least, collating) changes, and I'm a resolute supporter in the NetEA opensource style development (Just as long as there's an active and capable Army Champion to keep control of their list***).

Here's the factual problem:
The Marine list is internally broken.
It's always been internally broken.
Ever since it was first written, it was internally unbalanced.
Some care about half the units in the list being useless, and some don't.


Here's what I expect to happen:
Nothing.
Or, worse than nothing.


I'd love to be surprised, because I quite like this particular toy soldiers game, and I think the years of debate followed by few real decisions being made has been, and may well continue to be, harmful to the online community.




***Which lists fail to make the grade, you may judge for yourself.
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Dobbsy, I agree with Hena that people can talk about things all they want. I also agree with you that there seems to be an almost perverse desire to tinker with core lists when they just don't need to be touched at all.

Statements like "Nobody takes them" and "Everybody takes them" need to be eyed with reasonable suspicion. I was just pointing a similar problem with the Eldar list (see this thread).

The Dark Eldar have nothing to do with this, and yet everything to do with this. Raiders 2.0 was coming out and I really wanted to do something with my favorite army list. There were all these special rules ideas I had worked with in the past that I thought would make them more flavorful, give them more options, whatever. I played out a few games with them and really liked the results. Now I could have added them to the official list, but didn't. Instead I resisted the temptation and added them as 'Optional Rules'.

IMO most of the ideas being batted around have their home in variant lists and/or optional rules.
Author:  captPiett [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Moscovian wrote:
Statements like "Nobody takes them" and "Everybody takes them" need to be eyed with reasonable suspicion.

There do (does?) seem to be a lot of arguments based at least in part on these statements. If I were to plead for something, it would be to stop basing discussions on local "meta" game environments.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
captPiett wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
Statements like "Nobody takes them" and "Everybody takes them" need to be eyed with reasonable suspicion.

There do (does?) seem to be a lot of arguments based at least in part on these statements. If I were to plead for something, it would be to stop basing discussions on local "meta" game environments.



Here's the list from the "everybody's compiled proposals" thread that I collated then posted.

- "Half BM's in engagements" rule to be removed.
- Warhound Titan critical hit to be made considerably more dangerous (Universal change across all Imperial lists)
- Warhound Titans to rise to 300pts (In Marine lists only)
- Predator Destructors to go from FF4+ to FF3+
- Land Raiders to go from 85pts to 75pts each
- Tactical formations to drop to 275pts
- Vindicator formations to drop to 225pts


Forget local metagames. Go to the battle reports forum, or the battle results thread.

Show me the (Winning) Marine lists that don't use Warhounds as mainstays.
Show me the Predator Destructors in use.
Show me the Land Raiders thread that doesn't have 90% in favour of the LR change.
Show me the Tactical formations in use for something other than SC bodyguard duty*.
Show me the Vindicator formations in use.


And if you can't find anything, then yes, draw on EpicUK's excellent battle tracking records.
Why would you not use such a resource, taken from the largest and most active "real life" Epic community in the world?

Because you don't personally agree?
I don't personally agree with "Autokill" for Warhound Titans, I think it's too big a change.
But if demanded by the community, then I'll damn well play with that change.
And I'll have fun pushing my toy robots around whilst doing so.



*Lest we forget, Tactical Formations are supposed to be the mainstay of most Marine armies. Show me the lists with more Tactical Formations than Warhound Titans.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
On my planet ... we go by a "Prime Directive" so to speak ... DWWFY(Do What Works For You). For example ... I'm using DRM Hubries as Tomb Spyers and Chaos Andriods as Destroyers, for some of my Necron Formations ... and I don't care what anyone thinks ... :P
Author:  blackhorizon [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Rules apply to what you and your local group want to play.

Tournaments or gaming someone new need a stricter approach --> the files on the GW website.

The only thing I have troubles with is surfing, searching epic:A things and travelling this very forum. ;) Hi Cybershadow. It has too many subforums. But that's another discussion.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Dobbsy, don't give up and don't give in, you are not alone.

Also don't worry about the UK lists.
Author:  Athmospheric [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
I tend to feel the same as you Dobbsy.

I don't like the gazillion different statline for such things as tac marines across the various list either. Special rules are getting out of hands too IMHO. This is starting to look like 40K, complete with a million variation (only it's the other way around : if you have a flamer on an infantry guy, you need the statline to reflect it), rule and codex creep included.
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
Well, the winning Marine list that crawled all over me like a bad rash is being played by Cameron in this weekend's Epic tournament. That list fielded A) No Warhounds and B) Marauders; presumably two characteristics that are 'never' in a winning Marine list.

Sure, that's one game, but it is still a data point in complete contradiction to what 'everybody' is saying.

SMs have frequently been a sore point for a lot of people, but there are changes being proposed that can affect the list (ex. your recent threads regarding Marauders and Warhounds) in unpredictable ways. I'd say lock in the top 1-3 change proposals and let the list sit for awhile. It's not like they aren't balanced enough.

Same thing goes for the Eldar list - we've got proposals to change Scorpion EoV stats, War Walker stats, blah blah blah, yet the one glaring problem on the list (the Warp Spiders being overpowered) is outright ignored.

We need to focus on getting the big rocks into the jar and then see how the little pebbles settle around them.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When will the madness stop? A heartfelt letter of pleadi
And with this thread, I'm pretty sure I've said my last on Marine-specific changes, unless some other new spark of an idea arises.

So here's my own letter of pleading, before I sign off from the debate :


For those with the blue names and for those with the orange, for those who are lurking, and for those at the centre of the demands of duty on the ERC itself. (EDIT: And yes, also for those with the green. I promise I won't forget you guys again...)

For the sake of the health of this silly little game, don't let the online community go through more fruitless years of rot (And yes, rot is what happens when duty is abandoned).

Remember, that army list development is about providing a service, not imposing a personal opinion.

And that, is my personal opinion. ;D


Quote:
DWWFY

Wiser words are seldom spoken. :)


See ya'll in the 2011 Marine Changes thread. ::)
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