Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

NetEA Armies Book.

 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:50 am
Posts: 835
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I know you don't want rants E&C, and this will probably sound pretty harsh, but once you no longer have time for a voluntary position its best to either add more people or step aside until you do have time.

A fair point, and my opinion that a single downloadable document is best is just that, my own opinion.

I just look to the failure of the wiki army list repository system (It's full of out of date and broken links) as evidence that a cloud computing solution isn't going to work.

The most "user friendly" system I can think of for a newbie is a single link that they click on, and then they recieve a .pdf with all the army lists in it.

I agree with most of what E&C has said. I believe the intent for the project was for a single repository of lists, and to be user friendly, especially for new players. It was the 'completeness' element that had our group initially gravitate towards the Markconz rulebook.

I'd go with a biannual update if Experimental lists were included, but my preference would be an annual update without Experimental lists. Approved lists, and Developmental lists are (or should be) at a stage where a yearly deadline is fine. Experimental lists would still be worked on through the forums, and only when accepted as Developmental by the NetERC, would they be included. That may be the kick in the pants needed for some designers to work on their lists.

Morgan Vening


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Why? I frankly don't want all the armies.

You're not a newbie, and it's more useful to a newbie to have a single link he can click on to download everything, rather than a page with 50 checkboxes on it.


But thats simply presentation. If the default is all lists of x level of quality there isn't any unticking to do, just one ticked box with the option of adding more experimental lists or expanding it and cutting lists.

Quote:
Plus, there's a decent chance that the Armies Book might get a print run.


Is there really that much demand for it? I have to be honest and say thats not something I would be interested in unlike the fun supplements that are produced.

The point isn't even to replace any future army book effort, just to get everything in one place as quickly as possible and in as a responsive way as possible. I would try but it is years since I did any website stuff.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20880
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Morgan Vening wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I know you don't want rants E&C, and this will probably sound pretty harsh, but once you no longer have time for a voluntary position its best to either add more people or step aside until you do have time.

A fair point, and my opinion that a single downloadable document is best is just that, my own opinion.

I just look to the failure of the wiki army list repository system (It's full of out of date and broken links) as evidence that a cloud computing solution isn't going to work.

The most "user friendly" system I can think of for a newbie is a single link that they click on, and then they recieve a .pdf with all the army lists in it.

I agree with most of what E&C has said. I believe the intent for the project was for a single repository of lists, and to be user friendly, especially for new players. It was the 'completeness' element that had our group initially gravitate towards the Markconz rulebook.


Indeed.

Markconz's handbook is definitely the kind of successful release template I had in mind.

Quote:
I'd go with a biannual update if Experimental lists were included, but my preference would be an annual update without Experimental lists. Approved lists, and Developmental lists are (or should be) at a stage where a yearly deadline is fine. Experimental lists would still be worked on through the forums, and only when accepted as Developmental by the NetERC, would they be included. That may be the kick in the pants needed for some designers to work on their lists.


I agree that "getting a list to a good enough state to be accepted into the Armies Book" would be a great spur to the community, and a good target for designers to work towards.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:45 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9095
Location: Worcester, MA
The biggest problem I see with an all inclusive army book is that as soon as one list is changed the book is out of date.

Individual PDFs for each army list with only the units specific to each variant list and the core units being with the core list would be a better model I think. Chris' idea with this model is a good one. A cgi script that puts all those PDFs together into one for a user to download would not be a difficult thing to code, I could put that together were there a need.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20880
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
Individual PDFs for each army list with only the units specific to each variant list and the core units being with the core list would be a better model I think.

That was tried with the wiki army list repository. It's always out of date and full of broken links.

I remain convinced that a "cloud computing" solution isn't going to work as well as just having a website with a download link on it.

Quote:
The biggest problem I see with an all inclusive army book is that as soon as one list is changed the book is out of date.

So you update the book annually.

If you want to get involved with army list development you jump into the relevant Tactical Command sub forum and help out, but if you're a newbie and you just want to play some games, an "Armies Book" is the only thing you need.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:07 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5834
Location: UK
Evil and Chaos wrote:
So you update the book annually.


Can the free acrobat reader edit PDFs?

Even with acrobat pro significant text changes to static PDFs are annoying as it does not re-flow text properly without using specific plug-ins or specialised software. You would need to update the master file, regenerate the pdfs and re-host. This is simple in theory, but not if the master file holder, the list champion and the web admin are all separate people with busy lives

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 162
Open Office can generate .pdf files from anything it can open, I use it to make pdfs regularly, the master copy is held as .doc or .odf and edits can be applied and then simply resave as a new pdf.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Cute PDF does the same thing. It's what I use and makes smaller files that Adobe which is to everyone's benefit.

Although nice, the netepic books are just too large to read on a PC.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5834
Location: UK
Yea but you won't have the master file to edit, you will have a .pdf to edit. Editing .pdfs without the master file is messy and not generally a thing for the end user to do manually.

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 162
So give the master file to all members of the ERC, they cant all go awol, can they? ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:49 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9095
Location: Worcester, MA
But that's exactly what it would be E&C, a link to a PDF with all the lists in it, followed by links to individual army lists.

And yes, you can update the book annually, but with this method if a list changed you would only need to update that single list's PDF. With that done every click of the "All lists" link from then on would be up to date.

Re: the wiki, I think the majority of our users don't know about it. And while it might be able to be edited by everyone I don't think anyone wants to go in there heavy handed and changing things. If someone was nominated the maintainer of the space it would improve.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20880
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
And yes, you can update the book annually, but with this method if a list changed you would only need to update that single list's PDF. With that done every click of the "All lists" link from then on would be up to date.

I don't see a need to update the main Armies Book more than once a year.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Quote:
Plus, there's a decent chance that the Armies Book might get a print run.


Is there really that much demand for it? I have to be honest and say thats not something I would be interested in unlike the fun supplements that are produced.


The initial design goal of the NetEA Army Book(s?) was simply to provide an easily accessed repository of finished and actively developed lists for both players and tournament organizers; to showcase the activity of NetEA and indicated that EPIC:A wasn't dead.

It wasn't meant to be a flashy "supplement", but was to have a secondary role in *inspiring* new supplements; page after page of just unit stats doesn't seem too appealing to me as something people would want to spend money on, I'd rather see cool stories and detailed, focused works put out that way rather than just lists.

As well, there have been failures in the Army Champion system, with disappearances and neglect at the top of various army "chains of command", myself included; everything being purely volunteer can be a major stumbling block. One of the reasons the "Markconz's Codex" worked so well is that it was a dictatorship, a benevolent one, but still just a single person putting together everything they thought was cool and putting it out there; the NetEA isn't formed that way, as I've mentioned in a previous thread:

Quote:
lists are added to the NetEA documents when the creators of said lists ask to be included, and those listed are then vetted by the Army Champion and, often, the NetERC. We don't just take people's lists and say, "Now you're part of the the NetEA!", since we don't know if they want to be part of the project or not. While the NetEA is a very freeform, open organization, there is still some control and oversight by the various head Champions and the NetERC; not everyone necessarily wants to be part of that, and we certainly aren't going to force them.


Now, what's a list developer supposed to do if that Army Champion is non-existant or incommunicado... well, that's something we're wrestling with and people with thoughts and ideas about that should email the NetERC or start a new thread.

Just to be clear, the NetEA Army Book will never be "The Official Book of Epic Armies"; any tournament organizer, group, or whatever will always be able to but the kibosh on armies they don't like or don't want to allow in play... and we certainly won't be getting any kind of GW Stamp of Approval. The best we can hope for is "The Big Book of Epic Armies that are Reasonably Fun to Play With and Against".

So, what now? Playtest armies that you think are cool and/or need work, speak to the Army Champions about your suggestions and concerns, yell at the NetERC for taking so long, and be ready to volunteer to help.

We're all volunteers here, but we're also all passionate about this great game. I appreciate all the efforts people have put into this game and I understand the frustration, and I'm sorry I've been a contributor to that frustration, when things don't progress as one wants or hopes; we, the NetERC, are working on getting all the gears turning and the balls rolling again and ask for patience, and help as we need it!, and thank you for your efforts.

Much, much more to come.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Armies Book.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:56 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5834
Location: UK
I just mistook annually for manually....ignore all of the above... :-[ :P

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net