I was informed that my group will be using the NetEA lists for an upcoming tourney, and therefore, my single Warhound for 250 points is now 275 points. What was the rationale for this? I couldn't find an answer anywhere. Is it just because "smaller unit sizes cost more as a rule?" The only explaination I could find was "Nope, simply cut-n-paste from the Marine "Allies" section; though I think many of the "newer" Imperial Guard armies follow the 275/500 thing anyway" and that really isn't a good reason.

The thing that irks me is that with a 25 point bump, I now have to dump a unit and will have 25 points that I cannot fill, unless I just throw a Chimera in for the sake of having one (obviously, I'm playing Guard.)

I don't have a real issue with changing things because of balance, but change for the sake of change, or because "all the other lists out there are doing it" doesn't sit well with me. Can someone give me an answer on this one?

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It's for balance. Multi-Warhound lists were always very strong in tournaments and Warhound spam was considered to be a problem because of it. 3DC, shielded, Fearless formations are quite durable and allow armies to retain a high activation count late in the game.

OTOH, Warhound packs of 2 do not offer the same level of activation and flexibility advantage as single Warhounds and were not considered unbalanced at 500 points.

I might be mistaken, but I believe the EpicUK group that runs tournaments in the UK came to the same conclusion and made the same change to point cost.

Indeed they did.

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It seems to me that it would have been better to put a unit cap on the Warhounds, rather than raising the price. If I'm running 4 Warhounds separately, this ruling doesn't hurt me in the slightest - I only lose 100 points of something else. So I lose 6 stands of infantry. Big deal.

On the other hand, if I am a player that is using one Warhound as support, that extra 25 points really hurts because I lose a unit that I might need, and I don't have anything to fill that gap, unlike the spammer who has 3 additional Warhounds making up for the lost 100 points.

Unit caps kill spam, not a couple extra points.

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Not all games are played at 3000 points, it's just the most common point value.

The case against caps is that they don't scale... allowing 0-3 Warhounds 250 points each makes them too good at lower point value games and worse at higher point value games.

Personally, I can see a case for leaving IG single Warhounds at 250 points vs the Marines at 275 points as 1) The IG have a lower Strategy Rating and 2) the Four-Hound problem was primarily a Marine issue, not a Guard one, as the Guard have a lot of other sweet options that compete with Warhounds at that point value.

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At 3000 points you can no longer run 4 and running 3 means max one T'bolt flight for fighter cover.

Units that are not correctly valued for their abilities get spammed, unit caps are then put in place to limit them. Many think it better to fix the points than put caps on units as these don't scale as game increase in size.

YMMV of course.

Chroma I'm going to respectfully disagree with you other the warhounds usefulness to guard. Nearly every guard list I've seen at a tournament recently has at least one warhound and normally more.

Even I succumbed and used 'hounds in my last guard list.

[EDIT] of the 8 guard lists brought to the 3 UK tournaments this year 5 had warhounds.

Point taken. Still, it does hurt the player who wants to only take one, as it creates an artificial "points gap" that is pretty tough to fill.

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Agree. It is fine as it is now.

Only other option I can see is 1 per 1000 points. No need to change it however. I do not see it as broken.

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Hmmm... I thought the NetEA Steel Legion update allowed 0-2 Snipers at +25 points each, but that doesn't seem to be in there now... so I get what you mean by there being a single non-50-multiple formation in the list being a problem.

Currently, the only way to get another non-50-multiple upgrade is Mechanized Snipers at +75 points.

The NetERC will look into this.

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I don't see it as broken either, just something that could have possibly been done differently.


Thanks! I mean, yes, I could take a sniper or Ogryn unit and a Chimera, but it's kind of like I'm shunted into taking a worthless filler unit to make up for the Warhound increase.

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Imp Guard are the one army that I never have a problem making a force for.

They have so many options that are good and cheap. I find it hard to think that the 25 point bump on Warhounds would throw any IG army I made up out unless I had been playing the same force over and over again and trying to tweak it to it's min-maxed potential.

Is this the case berzerkmonkey?

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I believe it's mainly that there is only one other option in the entire list that is also a multiple of 25 points.

A single Warhound at 275 points means that you'll always be at *least* 25 points down from whatever point value of game you're playing, and, depending on other formations, potentially more.

That's the heart of the issue, no, berzerkermonkey?

And, just to nip it in the bud, the desire to "spend all your points", is *NOT* min-maxing.

Example, here's a list from the pre-275 point change that I've used, a heavy armour/mech force. Changing the single Warhound to 275 (from 250) means I've got to drop a full formation to fit it in... and then add upgrades... and still be down 25 points.


Sample 3000 Point Steel Legion Army

Mechanized HQ Company
1 Supreme Commander
12 Imperial Guardsmen
7 Chimeras

Tank Company
1 Vanquisher
9 Leman Russ

Superheavy Tank Company
2 Shadowswords
1 Baneblade

Superheavy Platoon
1 Shadowsword

Artillery Battery
3 Manitcores
1 Commissar

Vulture Squadron
4 Vultures

Deathstrike Battery
2 Deathstrike Missile Launchers

Thunderbolt Squadron
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

Warhound Squadron
1 Warhound

Not at all. I don't think that the points increase makes the army worthless, it is just that I feel players who don't try to powergame are penalized. The guard don't have a lot of cheap, effective units, so when one is taken away, you feel it.

With a 25 point Warhound price increase, I lose a Hydra that might save my infantry unit from fighters. Or I lose the Support Squad that might have saved my artillery when Terminators teleported in.

My argument is that with the increase, I don't just lose 25 points, I lose a potentially useful unit and have to replace it with a poorer substitute or lose the points. The point values of the units on the list make it pretty hard to fill the gap.

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