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Off-Board Formations - General Rules

 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:19 am 
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Yes, but the point is that the Eldar can usually do this with very limited numbers of formations that are usually relatively expensive. Eg 11-12x activations including a gate and 2x Storm Serpents, and a maximum of 3-4 formations off-table.

By the time you have included the obligatory Aspects and equipped two Guardians with Wraithguards and/or Wraithlords, the remaining formations are usually quite weak. The consequence is that you cannot really use more Storm Serpents because they become more vulnerable to pre-emptive strikes, so you need to include formations to deter or prevent these (1-2 Falcons, 1-3 Rangers, 1-2 Nightwings etc). Furthermore if you place more than three formations in the Webway, this leaves the on-table Storm Serpents horribly vulnerable, and though they are DC3 their 5+ RA armour tends to get ripped to shreds by MW.

With 3-4 formations off-table you do not have the luxury to 'stall' by burning them early, the Eldar need these formations either as a counter-attack threat or to spearhead the assault on a particular sector. So, the off-table formations only get 'burned' when you are forced to; usually either because the Storm Serpent has failed to activate as intended, or because the wraithgate is covered or out of position. The other point is that once on table, they cannot get back into the Webway (unlike the Necrons).

So yes we do allow Eldar to Marshall off-table, but it is not 'stalling' indefinitely. I might add that this was as the result of extensive discussions on both the original GW and the old TacComs sites with Greg and Dave (and IIRC also yourself)


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:32 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
Ginger wrote:
The existing rules for gates (as I and others in the UK play them) work fine for the Eldar:- If the situation is unfavourable (usually in the last 1-3 activations of a turn) the Eldar player Marshalls off-table in alternate activations

Seriously? You've been playing with Eldar burning activations to Marshall/stall indefinitely as long as they don't want to bring formations on-board?

Is that how the EpicUK tourneys work gates?

The rules are clear that a formation which comes out of a gate "enters play." The only option the rule gives for off board formations activating is to enter play. The very idea that it's not in play indicates to me that the formation can only be treated as explicitly described. How did you come to the conclusion that it would be okay?


Never seen it played that way at a UK tournament as far as I can remember.
I thought it was confirmed a few times that a failed activation roll by a formation (non aircraft) meant entering the table with a BM as the only activations allowed to be taken (by off board units)are ones that involved entering play. ie you couldn't take an overwatch/sustain fire action etc. to deliberately not enter play.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 pm 
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I have also never seen it played the way Ginger indicates (even in games against him - although it probably just didn't come up).

I personally wouldn't stall with eldar formations in a gate, if I activate a foration to come through a gate thats what it does even if its using the move part of a hold activation, if I have more eldar formations than gates then any formations that cant enter by a gate that turn are simply ignored for activation purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Ginger: I think you're alone on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:06 am 
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yme-loc wrote:
I have also never seen it played the way Ginger indicates (even in games against him - although it probably just didn't come up).

I personally wouldn't stall with eldar formations in a gate, if I activate a foration to come through a gate thats what it does even if its using the move part of a hold activation, if I have more eldar formations than gates then any formations that cant enter by a gate that turn are simply ignored for activation purposes.


I have to admit that I've always played it that a fm that fails it's activation to come out of a gate may either hold and move out of the gate with a BM or hold and remove that BM, which allows the gate to be used by another fm. Not entirely sure if that's right or not, though it means that I've never rolled to rally my offboard eldar fms.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:26 am 
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That's not quite the same as Ginger is suggesting, as it depends on the formation failing its activation roll. Ginger is proposing using an activation that does not allow/require a move to stay inside the gate intentionally, if I understand his stance. THis would allow the Eldar player to 'stall' through several enemy activations, thus giving the Eldar player a 'virtual' activation advantage; i.e. having more activations than are present on the table. This is currently allowed for AC, but the generall ineffectiveness of AC counterbalances that, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:35 am 
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I get that SG, just wanted to point out how I've been playing it, rightly or wrongly. Not sure if it fits into the proposed simplification of the only action an off-board fm can take is to move onto the board, because, as you pointed out, what I said is the result of a failed activation. I'm too lazy to dig up the rules to see if I'm playing it right or not :)

also, different gaming groups around the world, isolated as they are, often have distinct interpretations of the rules (case in point being my "local" gaming group in the US used to count offf-board fms for deployment until I came along and upset them) which can become entrenched over time..


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:03 am 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
I have to admit that I've always played it that a fm that fails it's activation to come out of a gate may either hold and move out of the gate with a BM or hold and remove that BM, which allows the gate to be used by another fm. Not entirely sure if that's right or not, though it means that I've never rolled to rally my offboard eldar fms.

That's how I've played it too.

As to the reserves "via portals", we've always played it that once all on board formations have been activated, if there are still available portals and formations in reserve to use them, but that the player doesn't want to bring on board, they say "done", and have no more activations that turn, just as if they had run out of activations; they have no opportunity to re-think that if a new situations makes an arrival desirable later that turn.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:16 pm 
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mattthemuppet, your approach is correct under either approach: if you fail the activation, you are not forced to enter with a BM.

Spectrar Ghost and others, this is not what I am 'proposing' but rather what I have actually played over many years:- Where the Eldar player finds it unfavourable or undesirable for a formation to enter the table, they use a Marshall for the nominated formation to stay off-table. I might add that I have not used gates for the past two years or so in an (unsuccessfull) attempt to find a more successfull army (I have never finished any tournament in the top half of the field, and am usually last or very near the bottom). That people apparently do not remember me doing this shows just how 'appallingly game-breaking' this actually is not .

OK - lets move on from here. So for now the position is :-

  • Off-table formations that activate must enter the table.
  • A player may pass his remaining activations provided he has no on-table formations left to activate.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Your last sentence should include "....activate, or all remaining ground formations are on overwatch and wish to retain that status."


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Ok, Please can we sort out how 'Gates work with respect to being blocked, and where formations cannot completely deploy, because these are the main problems that players have encountered over the years.

IIRC, the answeres that have been presented are
  1. If the gate is covered by an enemy ZoC, the off-table formation must 'assault' that enemy out of the gate
  2. If the off-table formation does not have sufficient space to deploy, either
    1. the remainder of the formation is destroyed, applying that number of BMs to the formation
      or
    2. the assault is fought and if successfull the remainder of the formation enters the table otherwise they are automatically destroyed before any hackdowns are applied
  3. If the gate is 'blocked' (however that is defined) then either
    1. The gate cannot be used at all
    2. The number of units that can exit are limited to the number that can move into B-B with the blocker
    3. The gate cannot be 'blocked' (however that is defined)


Last edited by Ginger on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Your last sentence should include "....activate, or all remaining ground formations are on overwatch and wish to retain that status."


Which interestingly gives us a precident for passing formations activations too.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:35 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
Your last sentence should include "....activate, or all remaining ground formations are on overwatch and wish to retain that status."


Which interestingly gives us a precident for passing formations activations too.


From the FAQ

Q: Can a unit remain on Overwatch
into a following turn?
A: If the Formation hasn't fired by the
end of the turn, then they can remain
on Overwatch into the following turn.

So this effectively allows you to "pass" all formations on OW, but you can't do this until all your none OW formations have taken an activation.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-Board Formations - General Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Your last sentence should include "....activate, or all remaining ground formations are on overwatch and wish to retain that status."

Not sure about that Meph. When Neal introduced the idea that OW could be carried over (which I also felt was another breach of the same principles), he said that a player could 'pass' activating the formation rather than being forced to attempt to activate it. So I am sure that the majority of the forum will now say that you are no longer forced to try to activate a formation on OW.

(you beat me to that Meph)


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