Tactical Command
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[Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=16701		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
As i said in TRCs DarkAngels thread here it is:

Please see this as an official petition to the NetERC.

There are known issues with the Plasma Cannons on the Leman Russ Demolisher. Because they are slow-firing (nowhere backed up by fluff or rules since 2nd Edition Wh40k) it is really hard (without some tokens) to show how many shots a formation with LR Demolishers has. Turning them backwards as eg Bombards or Manticores doesn't work because the LR Demolisher has two Plasma Cannons and ins't forced to shoot with both if capable too.

And then is the issue that the current stats (30cm AP4+/AT4+ slow-firing) doesn't represent a Plasma Cannon how it is used to be.

So i will go step by step through theindividualstats.

Range:
Is ok. 36" in Wh40k usually are 30cm in Epic.

AP-Value:
All Plasma weapons in Wh40k (Plasma Pistol, Plasmagun,Plasma Cannon) have the same Strength of 7 and the same Armourpiercing (Ap) of 2.
Strength 7 means that it wounds all Wh40k models which are Infantry in Epic on a 2+. It can't get any better other than with Strength D weapon which auto-wound.
Armourpiercing 2 means that it ignores ALL armour saves. Only indivuduals with an Invulnerable Save as some Characters, Terminators and Daemons have a save against it.
The Plasma Cannon uses a 3" Blast template which usually is big enough to hit 1-3 models.
The weapon with the same destructive power against Infantry is the Demolisher Cannon (Strength 10, Ap2, 5" Blast) but is slightly better because of the larger template it can hit more models.
A Demolisher Cannon has AP3+ in Epic.
An Autocannon wich has the same Strength 7) of a Plasma Cannnon but worse Ap (4) and 2 shots instead of the template.
An Autocannon has AP5+ in Epic.
That the Plasma Cannon ignores almost all saves would justify MW on the AP stat but this isn't covered by the rules. Instead the higher Ap should be justify a better AP value than the Autocannon but not as good (smaller Blast template) than the Demolisher cannon.
So AP4+ seems just fine. For ALL Plasma Weapons (apart WE ones like Plasma Blastguns and biger). The Plasmagun should also have AP4+.

AT-Value:
So thats a biggie here.
As mentioned the Plasma Cannon and the Autocannon have the same Strength of 7. This makes them next to useless against vehicles with better armour than a Rhino. Teh Autocannon is better than the Plasmacannonbecause it has 2 shots but the Plasmacannon has only one Blast template which is 1 shot against vehicles. So the Autocannon has actually twice the chance to destoy a (light armorued) vehicle.
The Autocannon has AT6+ in Epic.
So the Plasma Cannon should have AT7+ because it is worse but this would be the firstweapon with a to-hit value worse than 6+ so i propose At6+ for the Plasma Cannon and the Plasmagun.

Slow-firing:
In 2nd Edition Wh40k a Plasma Cannon (and Pistol and Gun) has to wait one full turn after shooting to be able to shoot again. In any following editions this was dropped. The Plasma Cannon (and Pistol and Gun) now can shoot every turn.
So ipropose thatthe Plasma Cannon should loose Slow-firing.

Conclusion:
My proposed stats for the Plasma Cannon:
30cm AP4+/AT6+

As a consequence:
My proposed stats for the Plasmagun:
15cm AP4+/AT6+
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
A couple of plasma guns are unlikely to kill 5 marines that easily though.

While in 40K a plasma gun may kill 1 marine on a 2+ at 24" it certainly isn't going to put down 5 - which is a stand in epic.

I could understand a plasma cannon gaining AP4+ because it is an area effect weapon and could concievably put down multiple marines/infantry men with a single shot but the plasmagun?

You would struggle to convince me it should improved from 5+.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
A turn of shooting in Epic is considered to be several turns of shooting in Wh40k. Remember that an Assault in Epic is a whole game of Wh40k.

And at 12" an Plasmagun has 2 shots. Same as an Autocannon. But an Autocannon with its "only" 2 shots can already take out a whole stand of Epic Infantry (on 5+ but it has far worse Armourpenetration as stated above).
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
I too am somewhat obviously all for AP5+/AT5+. Slow firing is a sod unless its on something like a manticore or a war engine.
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Slow firing is also a way of representing the "gets hot" nature of plasma weaponry.

It makes perfect sense for troops to have to stop firing their plasma weaponry for a period of time to prevent critical meltdown.

Also, shooting twice at 12" is represented by the FF statistic on units that carry plasma guns (To my memory, the only unit armed with plasma guns are storm troopers and they have FF4+).

Plasma gun shooting represents the shots done at range, outside of firefight type engagements.  Do you really imagine that, even several plasma guns shots fired at extreme range should warrant AP 4+?

I very much do not.  A Battlecannon is only AP 4 and in 40K this has a pie template, S8, and AP3 and is a vastly superior infantry killer than the plasma gun.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Ok the Plasma gun may stay. But what about the Plasma Cannon? MWAP4+/AT6+ or MWAP5+/AT6+ would bemore apropiate but there is no MWAP.
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
You're joking right?

There's no call whatsoever for any kind of MW effect on plasma guns.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
For me, the only concern is the slow firing nature of plasma cannons being annoying on demolishers. I'm in favour of 30cm AP5+/AT5+ which is what the minervans have.
Author:  Onyx [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 23 2009, 06:09 )

For me, the only concern is the slow firing nature of plasma cannons being annoying on demolishers. I'm in favour of 30cm AP5+/AT5+ which is what the minervans have.

Agreed.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 23 2009, 00:09 )

For me, the only concern is the slow firing nature of plasma cannons being annoying on demolishers. I'm in favour of 30cm AP5+/AT5+ which is what the minervans have.

What else is a weapon with maximum killability against Infantry? Only Strength D weapons (which autokill Infantry and allow absolutely no saves) have it easier to kill models which form Infantry units in Epic.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Quote: 

Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 23 2009, 06:09 )

For me, the only concern is the slow firing nature of plasma cannons being annoying on demolishers. I'm in favour of 30cm AP5+/AT5+ which is what the minervans have.

Agreed.

Agreed.
Anything that makes the game easier to play (i.e remove the need to count slow fired weapons) will get my vote.
Author:  Markconz [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
Quote: (Dobbsy @ Sep. 23 2009, 16:10 )

Quote: 

Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 23 2009, 06:09 )

For me, the only concern is the slow firing nature of plasma cannons being annoying on demolishers. I'm in favour of 30cm AP5+/AT5+ which is what the minervans have.

Agreed.

Agreed.
Anything that makes the game easier to play (i.e remove the need to count slow fired weapons) will get my vote.

I'm agreed on this too.
Author:  stompzilla [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
It's not exactly rocket science is it boys?  

If you want to fire plasma every turn you fire one plasma cannon from each demolisher every turn.  It's no more difficult than keeping track of warhound plasma blast guns or manticores.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but even a monkey can be trained to count the no of demolishers in a unit and work out how many plasma shots (1 each!) there are if done in this way.  If you try to get any more complicated than this, then you bring the hassel on yourself which hardly makes for a satisfactory argument for effectively doubling the firing rate of demolisher plasma cannons.
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
I don't like modern dum^H^H^Hsimplified 40k weapon stats where plasma cannon has the same strength and armor piercing value as a plasma pistol (or the whole armor ignoring AP mechanic). Epic stats are clearly modelled after more detailed and better thought out Rogue Trader/2e stats so apart from the slow-firingness being inconvenient on Demolishers it's all good to me. Just change two slow firing sponsons to one shot per turn and it won't change much in the way of effectiveness.

And no MW on plasma weapons, kthxbye.
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