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Transport deathtraps
Gary
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:08 pm 
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It seems a bit of a shame to me that staying in your transport is so dangerous for infantry in Epic. I think it looks a bit silly having the infantry always hop out of their tanks (and then huddle in the cover of those tanks :D ) at the end of each activation.

IMO it'd be quite nice more often to see infantry with a place to go stay in their vehicles until they got there, and it would look cool on the table as well - mech formations hurtling across the board (without a load of blokes milling about).

Maybe if units in a destroyed transport only took a hit on a 4+ instead of automatically, and then made their saves as normal? This would make things a bit safer and make it more attractive to stay loaded up, giving you more options in game.

Obviously this is a very minor suggestion and the rules are in no way unbalanced as they stand, but what do people think? House rule? Not worth bothering with? Do you think it might unbalance things by making it easier for transported infantry to make long range engagements? Maybe it'd help out ground based marines ?:)
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Ginger
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Actually, there are occasions when they do stay inside - Eldar Guardians and the weaker Aspects often do better inside Wave Serpents with their reinforced armour, and even Marines moving towards the end of a turn can stay put to provide a long range assault. Also, by staying inside the AV, you obviously remove one target type from any potential attacker (and I have had TRC switch targets for his TBolts and artillery purely because of this)

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alansa
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:48 am 
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From a simulation or realism point of view, i'm not so sure troops stay in transports in the real world. Transports are usually there to get you to the battle area and then provide close support.

An epic battlefied represents an area much larger than the 6mm model scale suggests and you can think of it as a series of battlefields and not just one. Infantry are transported into battle and then hop out when they get to the hot stuff. Some types of infantry, Space Marines and Eldar epecially never stay still. Once they have conquered in one battlefield they, more often then not, hop off to another one, and another one. In-out-in-out shake it all about. Not that some weapons have extremely long range 45cm and more, and can pick off and disrupt 'transport columns' from long range as the infantry are moved across to the next battlefield.

As Gavin says though, sometimes it's advantages to stay inside for a long distance charge for example, or because the transport/infantry combo is an exception to the norm and not a death-trap.

I must admite though - if a formation doubles 60cm into the middle of nowhere, gets out, does nothing - not even support a nearby assault -  gets in again and doubles to it's real target another 60cm away, then it does look kinda odd. What where they doing out of their vehicles? having a nice picnic?




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Well after playing Epic since '90 and commanding a Mech Inf Co.(M113s) '87-89, I have a little insight on this subject ...   Dismounting after every activation is not only unrealistic but cumbersome ... Infantry in carriers moves to the nearest covered and concealed position (sometimes known as the "Assault Position") to the objective and dismounts at that location. Where the carriers set up in Support by Fire positions.  Keeping your infantry  mounted too long makes them targets ... But dismounting your infantry too soon negates their mobility.  However, attempt to keep your carriers (all your forces for that matter!) with mounted troops under as much cover & concealment as possible while moving. Don't move in a straight line, move from cover to cover. Spend very little time in the open. That's the way I've done it in RL and on the Epic Table ... :)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:55 pm 
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L4 and what would such a mechanised column do if they come under fire (by ground forces and/or aircraft)? Will they stay in their transports or will they disembark and run for cover?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:26 pm 
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In the Real World, depending on the transport, troops would often hop out of their vehicles as their survivability went up drastically being away from such a large target with little/no armor.  This obviously doesn't apply to all transports of course and L4 undoubtedly has more experience than me, but hopping out isn't completely out of whack.  There was a rather extensive article on wikipedia I read but the subject title escapes me at the moment.  I was reading about troops tranporting on the outside of tanks and I linked to another more generalized section on transported troops.

My own personal experience is limited in that my MOS precluded me from frontline activities and my main concerns were landmines / IEDs, not enemy fire.  That and I have never ridden in a Chimera before. :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:44 pm 
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O.K. ... depending on terrain and situation ... ?Artillery Fire - the APCs would maneuver quickly out of the barrage. Most any other situations the APCs would again quickly maneuver to a covered position and if possible lay down Suppressive Fire. ?The troops ?would rapidly dismount, go to ground/cover. ?If ?little cover is available, the APCs will, quickly stop/or move into a "herring-bone", the Troops will dismount and go to ground. The APCs will fallback to cover (if there is any !) and get the hell out of the enemies' fire. The entire time, the APCs' main weapon is firing at known and/or suspected enemy targets ... ?The idea is ... don't get killed ! ?Now for game purposes - if I understand Gary's post, dismounting after each movement/activation is not the same as I discussed in my first post. If you move under cover and only dismount when you take fire, you are minimizing your time as a target and maximizing your mobility ... ?So basicallly/generally only dismount when you can't quickly move to cover and/or you are taking effective enemy fire. ?Do you guys see what I'm getting at here ? ?Most APCs (this includes Rhinos and even Chimeras) are "Fragile" ... so using cover & concealment with speed is your "armor" ... ? Again, dismount too late you are a target ... dismount too soon you can only move as fast as you can walk ...




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Thanks L4. problemhere i sonly that all which gives Armoured Vehicles cover is also Dangerous Terrain. Only blocking LOS would be an option.

So to mimic real-life behaviour MechIanised nfantry would do the following:

- Stay in the vehicles after each move unless they reach their destined objective.
- If shot by BP weapons still stay in the vehicles (and hope to get out of it soon).
- If shot by any other weapons they would immediately disembark go into cover and return fire if possible.

Correct?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:23 am 
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Yes, You got it ! When I say Cover and/or Concealment, I'm talking also including Line of Sight(LOS). If a vehicle is 50% covered by a wall (Hull Down) it gets a cover bonus, that's the way we play it. And for games purposes obviously, blocked LOS is defacto cover.  Can't hit what you can't see ...  :D   So move behind buildings, ridges, woods, etc. ...

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Ginger
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:16 am 
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so you follow 1.8.2 to the letter, getting a -1 to hit if the AV is partially hidden by terrain, but not gaining the cover save if actually targetted, LOL :p

L4, out of interest, how much terrain do you fight with on the tabletop (and what sizes are they approximately); and in RL, what would be considered "normal" engagement distances for the kind of action you describe?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:24 am 
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Well Ginger, our tables vary, I try to do different types of terrain. If you remember some of the pics of terrain I posted in the past. It varies from cratered fields, ancient ruins, forrested countryside with small villages and farms. The occasional stream/pond. (Of course Alien 'Nid, Eldar terrain, Ork vills of all types -adobe, jungle, etc.) Kind of like South Central Europe. Rarely do we cover the board with a city. Maybe on the edge or outskirts of a city ... So the short answer it what we classified as Mixed terrain as opposed to Open(desert) or Closed (Jungle, City). ?We fight on a 6 foot by 5 foot table. ? Normal RL engagment distances depends on terrain obviously, most infantry engagements take place at about 250m. That has as much to do with the sights on weapons then anything else, save for terrain. ?Now an Armored engagment today on average takes place(again based on terrain and sighting systems), around 1500-2500m. ? So to answer your question about the type of engagement I discribed is 500-1000m, if I have to put a number on it.




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alansa
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:40 pm 
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L4 yeah I think what you've described as RL - and what people tend to do in epic about matches up. If troops are in (too much) danger, or they have arrived at their target -  They dismount. Otherwise they stay on board for increased mobility. Only one thing one might say is that they use their apcs as cover - is this realistic?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:36 pm 
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Yes, as you say this  works both in the game and in RL. Most of the time ... Now using their APCs as cover ... only as a last resort. The lost of a carrier means lack of mobility. The APCs usually best place after it drops off it's troops is under cover in a support by fire position. Or out of the way of enemy fire/LOS.      So save your APCs, they really are not MBTs. The notable exception to this the SM Land Raider. G/W invented a new class of AFV - a super heavy infantry carrier. But before you use them an MBT usually it's best to dismount the SMs.  But that depends on the situation, as always.  Now along time ago with E40K, Jervis mentioned in EPIC mag (IIRC) about seeing "Full Metal Jacket" a movie about the USMC in the '68 battle for Hue, RVN. He mentioned an optional rule about like in the movie. The USMC was advancing behide MBTs(M41s in the movie, M48s in RL) down the streets of Hue.  This is an exception, using AFVs as cover because of the urban environment ...  And an MBT is more survivable then an APC/IFV ...

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alansa
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:31 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ May 31 2008,16:36)
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Yes, as you say this ?works both in the game and in RL. Most of the time ... Now using their APCs as cover ... only as a last resort. The lost of a carrier means lack of mobility. The APCs usually best place after it drops off it's troops is under cover in a support by fire position. Or out of the way of enemy fire/LOS. ? ? ?So save your APCs, they really are not MBTs. The notable exception to this the SM Land Raider. G/W invented a new class of AFV - a super heavy infantry carrier. But before you use them an MBT usually it's best to dismount the SMs. ?But that depends on the situation, as always. ?Now along time ago with E40K, Jervis mentioned in EPIC mag (IIRC) about seeing "Full Metal Jacket" a movie about the USMC in the '68 battle for Hue, RVN. He mentioned an optional rule about like in the movie. The USMC was advancing behide MBTs(M41s in the movie, M48s in RL) down the streets of Hue. ?This is an exception, using AFVs as cover because of the urban environment ... ?And an MBT is more survivable then an APC/IFV ...

I remember that article from firepower mag the hide-behind-vechicles rule that they wanted, but dropped from e40k cause they couldn't make it work, but published it in the mag for fun.

In ea it works fine but as you say you risk losing your transport when the infantry would be better placed in real cover. People do this almost automatically though. I guess that's because, at least in the open, infantry can get no extra protection except when on overwatch. For they style of combat you describe, you need an awful lot of terrain to make it the norm....

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Transport deathtraps
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:19 pm 
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Well terrain is one of the key elements that "shapes" a battle ...  Now if you don't have a lot of terrain there are things you can do so everything is not a target. However, as I said we usually play a "Mixed" terrain board.  An "Open" terrain board like the high desert shapes the game in a certain way. As  "Closed" terrain like urban effects  it in a different way. So we don't use a lot of terrain as you suggest, but we do use a fair amount ... Even on a desert board we have dunes, escarpments, ridges, varying numbers of ruins and the odd salt marsh or two, etc. ...  Rarely will we play in an Closed urban game or siege - not a lot of room for maneuver, IMO. In our games open areas are usually avoided and battles revolve around key and decisive pieces of terrain that assists you with accomplishing your objectives of the game.   However, if you play in open terrain that means speed is important. And enemy positions must be "preped" with CAS, FA and Orbital Weapons Fire to suppress the enemies weapons. Otherwise if you are moving too long in the open, you become a target.  But as I always say DWWFY. So if you want to hide behind your APCs, go for it !  :D

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