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CS on EA

 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Hi all. Recently, I have been thinking a lot about Epic, and its future. So, I thought that I would document a few of my thoughts here, and see whether people agree with me or not. In particular, I have been thinking about the future of the game.

Initially, I had three questions:

1. Does Epic need saving?

Yes. (Looks around for disagreement.) No? OK. Moving on...

2. Can we save Epic?

I think that the answer to this is both yes and no. At the end of the day, if GW just stops making and selling Epic minis, then there is little that we can do about it. However, we can keep the game alive in the minds of the community and fans. To do this, we would need to get organised.

3. Should be save Epic?

This questions, depressingly, is the most difficult to answer with certainty. I will admit that I am on a knofe edge about this. Part of me simply says that if GW wants to kill the game then we should just let then and move on. After all, why should we do the work to keep a game alive when GW certainly wont appreciate the effort? On the other hand, while there are other games out there, and I applaud the various members of these boards in their plans to create a new game, the fact is that Epic has had a lot of work invested in it, development has been well structured and hard work has gone in, I really like the game system itself and if you want to game in the 40K universe in 6mm, Epic will always be the system to do it - even if there are other systems available.

I would like the game to survive. I like the system. I would like to keep it alive.

So the next obvious question - why do I think that am I the person for this and what can I contribute?

Good question. I am glad that you asked.

Firstly, no-one else has stepped up.  :D  However, more importantly, the one thing that has not been mentioned in any previous discussion on life support for the game. Administration. I strongly believe that any coherent effort will require a good administration system. This is something that I think that I can contribute. Also, I have invested in the game - the current edition and previous editions - in a big way. I will be the first to admit that I have more to lose than most if the game disappears.

OK. So, this is all great and everything, but so what?

Well, there are a number of root concepts that I think are important.

Premis - A supported Epic is good for players, and good for GW. A united and accessible game allows current players to agree on a single system and share experience, new players to find an easy access to the rules and a support network, and Games Workshop to benefit from a supported system and increased sales with minimum outlay for them. While I dont think that we will be able to actively work with GW, I do think that we can work within their confines to the advantage of everyone.

Perceived Problem - The game currently is stagnant. There has been extremely little forward movement since the first rule book was released. Coupled with this, the community have been busy in several unofficial capacities, and a huge variety of rules additions and force lists have been created, with little guidance for new players on the official status and legality of these. This leads to a very confusing system where the tournaments are forced to only use the core system (since there are no endorsed or official updates), existing players often have their own house rules and subsets of suggested rules changes, and new players find it almost impossible to get into the game and navigate the rules.

Goal - I would like to begin by clarifying the core rules, an compiling a list of current rules changes and suggested alterations. The longer term goal is to present a limited number of 'rules packages', consisting of the core rules and a number of additions, listing the status of the changes and working on a small and limited number of rule alteration suggestions at a time, producing an updated package and moving on to another set of proposed changes. I hope that this would provide a unified front for the game.

So, my role in all of this?

I see myself as the 'Gatekeeper' (the title was mentioned a while ago, and I like it!  :p ). My job would be to set up a structure for a board to make decisions, as well as web space resource to form the centre of development. I plan to set up the structure and system, and the to step back. I would appoint the initial board, and this would not include me. I mention this to assure people that I am not putting myself forward for any kind of coup. I would like to remain as the administrator for any new structure in place, and may take a more prominant role in the future, but not initially.

So, my short term ideas are...

I would appoint a board. Notice that I say appoint here. While it would be great to have a community vote, I simply dont think that there is the time or energy for this. This board would exist for a time limited four months in the first instance (until the end of June). It would exist as an interim structure, and voting and more general positions can be voted on and set out at this time. This would give the first set of decision makers the ability to get on with the job, and we would evaluate the progress at the end of their term. They would not be signing up for a long term committment, but could continue after the initial four month period if they wanted. In addition, the community to evaluate their progress in this time.

This board would consist of a number of groups:
- as mentioned, I would administrate, with no rule decision making duties
- the Epic board would consist of three key players
- each broad force list would have a champion appointed, for example a single Marine champion would be appointed, even where the list sees little movement, and potentially there could be several sub-champions for chapter specific lists. I think that this is important since there are decisions to be made across race lists - such as the Vindicator stats. I also feel that it may be a good idea to have a 'fan list champion' to oversee any and all fan lists to co-ordinate where necessary.

Some of these roles and positions would be 'token' positions. This would be where there is little or no movement for a list or race, and therefore not much for the champion to actually do. However, I do think that it would be a good idea to have a person appointed, in case of future issues.

The goals and objectives that I can see are:

1. Organise the rules and the board. Set in place a structure of players and decision makers. In addition, I would be very keen on involving the various other Epic groups in existance. If we could collaborate to a single and agreed set of rules that could be translated then that would be ideal. Initial positions would be for a four month period.

2. Set out a clear and coherent rules resource section. This would be a section of the web site with a list of the rules resources, links to where to get these rules and exactly how official they are.

3. Organise how to progres after the four month period, in terms of getting an approved board in place. It may be that the appointed board have worked well and everyone is happy, but clear responsibilities and roles need to be determined, along with options for people to step down. This should be fun, and too much work stops this very quickly. However, if we support each other and set small steps and reasonable time scales, I dont see why this is impossible.

4. Timetable and task list. We should set out what is definately approved, and where to go from here. This would focus on changes to the core rules first and foremost, with a limited list of rules changes for people to feed back on.

A note on 'the handbook' here. While I applaud Marks work on this, and certainly feel that we would be far worse off without it, my initial feeling is to start with the rules as downloaded from SG, rather than the handbook itself. My opinion is that the handbook has been applied beyond its initial purpose, and while it is an excellent resource (and we may end up there anyway), there are more controversial changes included. I would like to see a single set of rules that are largely debated and accepted as 'the way to play the game'.

Another note. We are not and never will built 'the perfect set'. There will be changes and suggestions that you dont agree with. The idea is to form a base set of rules changes to apply to the core rules as downloaded. If people want to alter these for their own games then they are welcome to do so, but the document is the list of most commonly agreed suggestions.

OK. I have gone on a lot here. Well done for reading down this far.

My questions are: Am I crazy? Is this achieveable or sensible?

I welcome any comments and feedback on this post. I would like to see if people think that this worth the effort.

Comments?

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:57 pm 
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I applaud you for your determination and commitment CyberShadow.

Is Epic worth saving? I have to agree. I think the tournament scenario is one of the best of the many games systems I've played. The rules themselves are simple but with enough depth to make each game different and challenging, even with the same armies facing each other.

Go for it, put the structure in place and appoint your board. All we players want is a guiding voice, something lacking from GW for a long time.


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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:05 pm 
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*scratches head*

Just to toss an idea out CyberShadow what about perhaps coming to some sort of an an arrangement with Pete for perhaps providing some sort of fan support for the upcoming Sci-Fi Commander since:

a) It already appears to have unit stats planned for DRM/EW/GW, and;

b) The general consensus is that it's decent set of rules to start with.

As much as I generally do think E:A is the best rules set for Epic yet I have to agree with Primarch that GW will come down like a hammer given their current situation on anyone "violating" their IP.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:15 pm 
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As much as I generally do think E:A is the best rules set for Epic yet I have to agree with Primarch that GW will come down like a hammer given their current situation on anyone "violating" their IP.


This is often said, yet GW know about NetEpic and don't do a thing about it.

Heck Netepic is mentioned in the Epic 40,000 rulebook!

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:23 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 17 2008,15:15)
QUOTE
This is often said, yet GW know about NetEpic and don't do a thing about it.

Heck Netepic is mentioned in the Epic 40,000 rulebook!

As Primarch pointed out in a thread recently NetEpic was created from a dead rules set at a time when GW was a little less draconian in their IP policy.

And given GW's long standing precedent of tolerating NetEpic I doubt they could have legal grounds for any C&D type actions on it... That's no longer the case anymore with regards to IP though and E:A is still a "live" game for GW.

Maybe GW will do a *wink wink nudge nudge* in this case as well but I have to admit I'd be surprised if they did.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:39 pm 
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The IP issue is the reason that my proposal centres on a set of rules changes applied to the initial core rules document (not even the handbook, which GW have not yet complained about). In effect, these would (initially, at least) be recomended changes to the rules that you would still need from GW. I cant see GW objecting to a list of our improvements to their rules, which we could also present to the ERC.

If we then decided to take things further, we would have a set of changes as a starting point, but this would be a more long term decision.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:44 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Feb. 17 2008,15:39)
QUOTE
The IP issue is the reason that my proposal centres on a set of rules changes applied to the initial core rules document (not even the handbook, which GW have not yet complained about). In effect, these would (initially, at least) be recomended changes to the rules that you would still need from GW. I cant see GW objecting to a list of our improvements to their rules, which we could also present to the ERC.

Ahhh... I misunderstood the depth of the proposal CS.

I can definitely still see an issue down the road with the ERC and getting anything made official but seeing as this now sounds more like clarification of than altering yeah... your less likely to get GW getting grumpy with you.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:17 am 
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Good onya CS.

Of all the game systems I play, EA is the only one I play because I like the system. I basically knew nothing of the 40K universe a year and a half ago but because of being re-introduced to the game by Mark_Logue and another mate (after a 15 year break), I have read over 10 40K novels, built and painted over 10 Epic armies (some for other people), made enough terrain to cover a couple of tables...

My point is I really like the game and want to see it develop and thrive.

Thanks for taking the time and energy to help this happen.
Steve. ? Onyx.





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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:50 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 17 2008,17:15)
QUOTE
As much as I generally do think E:A is the best rules set for Epic yet I have to agree with Primarch that GW will come down like a hammer given their current situation on anyone "violating" their IP.


This is often said, yet GW know about NetEpic and don't do a thing about it.

Heck Netepic is mentioned in the Epic 40,000 rulebook!

Hi!

Different time, different attitudes.

As mentioned we championed the older rules, and frankly I would bet we weren't even on their radar at the time. It's only when the dust surrounding the epic 40k fiasco settled that they even realized some fans were still supporting epic... just not the system they would have hoped....

Given that epic then went out of print and EA didn't show up for many years later, to which point netepic was well established and harder to shut down without a lot of bad press.

As to the question of "should" epic be saved, well, I have come to the belief that the answer is... NO.

Any fan based support for sort of has the unspoken underlying idea that th fans will support the rules aspect of epic until the unforeseen day GW once again makes epic minis available.

Of course it begs the question. What if that day NEVER comes?

How long can a fan base sustain rules with no way of providing models that, at the end of the day, are the basis of any minis game?

While it is certainly in keeping with GW's history of killing off epic to revive it at some other point, I'm not so sure that it will happen this time around. Too many things have changed. In GW's eyes, epic has had two consecutive commercial failures. Note please this is not a rules version appreciation or even our appreciation of commercial success. But remember our appreciation is meaningless, since GW through their action have passed judgment on it.

To them it doesn't make money on a scale worth it to them and their stockholders.

I don't think epic is ever coming back, not under GW in its current form anyway.

The movement for netEA, if it materializes, is a new one. Has anyone imagined what things will be like or how the fan base will feel 5, 10, 12 years from now?

I don't delude myself, even netepic as a fan base is shrinking. Its an esoteric fan group within a vanishingly small community which is epic gaming.

Netepic gold in all likelihood will be the last major revision/effort that will be made.

Nothing lasts forever.

I'm increasingly drawn to newer projects, preferably ones supported by independent minis companies, because I wish to seek that "feel" that I had with epic when I started  almost 19 years ago.

Thats why I created my Heresy rules, although I still didn't go all the way and just made the rules independent of the 40k universe.

Thats why I support PG's desire to make some new rules from scratch to support not only the 40k universe, but anything else besides.

There is a time to be born, live and also die.

Epic has had a great ride in its many incarnations, but it needs to die, until the day it can be born anew under circumstances that truly nurture it and permit it to survive.

I still have unbounded enthusiasm for 6mm sci-fi, even one that would seek to emulate and game in the 40k universe, but my enthusiasm for GW's epic, ANY VERSION, is about as close to zero as it can possibly be.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:11 pm 
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As Mephiston says, Go for it

However, this is only one step in the right direction to creating a consistent and accepted set of rules for E:A. ?You are proposing an organised structure to help sort out the current mess which is to be welcomed. But we will still need an "official" stamp of approval to give authority to the result, which ideally should be produced in co-operation with GW / SG and held in their sites somewhere.

As to the commercial IP, I cannot see how GW can get grumpy if we are working with them (however loosely) and within their realm etc.

Primarch does make a different point well. Any gaming system needs three inter-related things to exist:-
1) ?Reference materials (history, background reading, articles etc)
2) ?Resources (Rules, minis, accessories etc)
3) ?People (with imagination), both to play and maintain it.

We are talking about organising some people to help maintain one part of the system (the rules). The question is whether there is sufficient general interest in Epic as a conceptual whole, and whether these efforts can re-kindle or increase that interest. Personally, I think there may be (but only just).





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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:07 pm 
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You may be crazy, but I don't think that you are mad. As can be seen with Full Scale Assault having 18 players for next weekend Epic is not dead and in this country it is slowly growing.

Epic rules are very good and from my point of view we could leave the core rules alone and just concentrate on finishing some of the lists that have been hanging around for several years.

However, you'll have my support with progressing things forward.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:11 pm 
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There's one thing worth noting from the latest round of SG reductions:

- Necromunda got wolloped
- Inquisitor got smacked up
- Mordheim got punched in the face
- BFG got severely beaten
- The Battle of Five armies was hit so hard it lost 90% of its model range

In contrast, Epic lost.... the plastic ruins sprue.


GW seem to have more confidence in Epic than with the other systems...

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:35 pm 
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I'm not sure we can take any solace from that. Just about everything SG related that got cancelled were models that weren't available in blisters or boxed sets. Coincidentally, Epic had just about everything in boxed sets and blisters already, so wasn't hit too badly by the rejig. Necromunda for instance had a lot of models available outside of blisters and boxes, so got hit hard.

It's not as positive as you might hope.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:28 pm 
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CS,

You will have my support regardless of what you do.  While I like the idea of having everything in one place (like the handbook) I understand your misgivings and believe that your proposal will work just as well.  Some things like referencing rule and page numbers will go a long way to making it work just fine.

At the same time I like the idea PG has of an IP free handbook that can be used across gaming systems (DRM, Exodus Wars, Epic) and think that these two things can/should be developed simultaneously - one is short term investment, one is long term insurance.

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 Post subject: CS on EA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Thanks for the various feedback, guys. It is good to know that even if I am mad, I do not suffer alone!  :p

As to the question of "should" epic be saved, well, I have come to the belief that the answer is... NO.

Any fan based support for sort of has the unspoken underlying idea that th fans will support the rules aspect of epic until the unforeseen day GW once again makes epic minis available.

Of course it begs the question. What if that day NEVER comes?

How long can a fan base sustain rules with no way of providing models that, at the end of the day, are the basis of any minis game?

While it is certainly in keeping with GW's history of killing off epic to revive it at some other point, I'm not so sure that it will happen this time around. Too many things have changed. In GW's eyes, epic has had two consecutive commercial failures. Note please this is not a rules version appreciation or even our appreciation of commercial success. But remember our appreciation is meaningless, since GW through their action have passed judgment on it.


This is something that concerned me for a while. I also feel that there will not be another Epic version - not necessarily because GW wont want to revive it, but simply because the players will not trust it.

That said, I started to think about the consequence of this. For me, if GW dropped Epic tomorrow, I would continue to play, and continue to want to talk about the game. That in itself is a certain type of development, even without any structure in place.

However, this is only one step in the right direction to creating a consistent and accepted set of rules for E:A.  You are proposing an organised structure to help sort out the current mess which is to be welcomed. But we will still need an "official" stamp of approval to give authority to the result, which ideally should be produced in co-operation with GW / SG and held in their sites somewhere.

As to the commercial IP, I cannot see how GW can get grumpy if we are working with them (however loosely) and within their realm etc.

Primarch does make a different point well. Any gaming system needs three inter-related things to exist:-
1)  Reference materials (history, background reading, articles etc)
2)  Resources (Rules, minis, accessories etc)
3)  People (with imagination), both to play and maintain it.

We are talking about organising some people to help maintain one part of the system (the rules). The question is whether there is sufficient general interest in Epic as a conceptual whole, and whether these efforts can re-kindle or increase that interest. Personally, I think there may be (but only just).

I strongly feel that the best way to keep Epic alive (and by that I mean at the least keeping the current range available) is to show GW that we can do the work, and that sell the miniatures is all that they need - no further expense from them.

However, once we get to the point of a structure and development moving forwards, the ball will really be in GWs court. At this point, they will decide whether to support our efforts to a minimal extent, or not. If they decide not to, and withdraw the range then I can see a number of consequences.

Firstly, most of us will shrug and tut, and get on with painting the backlog of Epic minis. We will then have a rules structure in place to continue the game without a reliance on GW. And, I think that I have proved that I am perfectly willing to include races from DRM, CH, EW and GZG (and even Steel Crush?). Essentially, this has kept the NetEpic group going for many years.

Yes, it may be a losing battle and the game may eventually die no matter what we do. However, at this point we will have a game that has had more development than Epic currently has, and therefore mostly likely a better game as a result. Even if we dont manage to keep it on life support indefinately, we still benefit from the journey.

As for the official stamp, I simply dontthink that this will ever come. However, this version of Epic has an advantage over previous editions in that many of the 'official decision makers' are here and walk amoung us. I think that this will aide the transition to 'fan based' if required.

As to the three aspects of the game - reference, resources and people/community - I think that the only thing that we can directly provide are the miniatures. The rest is currently already provided by the community. As for the miniatures, what is the worst case scenario? That GW withdraw all minis? In this case, we play with what we have available, and the lists encompass the other manufacturers as the 'intro armies'. Would this be so terrible?

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