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Fearless retreat
rpr
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:53 am 
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One again I propose that fearless units that fall back should retreat to 15cm range as any other units. This would reflect the chaos they are forced into which will result in annihilation while they regroup, nothing to do them being fearless (otherwise it would be legal to say that Blast Markers do not affect fearless units).

If this is far too steep, it could be 'either do not move at all, or if move, must move further than 15cm as any other unit or be destroyed (or in a case of WE, take 1 dmg per enemy unit within 15cm)'. However, I would prefer that some units could have "inmovable" or similar special attribute which would allow them to stay immobile when routed without being destroyed...

This change to fearless retreat would take care of "fearless scouts" rule abuse (retreat to 6cm range of enemy unit - they are now forced to move in their next activation - not as bad as old charge to CC but still an abuse) and some other similar tactics like preventing enemy move by encircling them with routing fearless units (igt is so much easier with 5cm distance, not 15cm...)
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:35 am 
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It could be helpful to know how Fearless works in Wh40k.

Normally if a unit loses 25% of it's models due to shooting they are forced tomake a Leadership test. If they fail they break and run.

If a unit loses a round of close combat, they are forced to make a Leadership test which could be modfied depending how bad they lost. If they fail they run and risk to become completely whiped out. Is an enemy unit standing in the way of the withdrawing move the unit is gunned down and destroyed.

At the beginning of thenext turn withdrawing troops can make a Leadership test to rally.
Space Marines autorally after the withdrawing move because of ATSKNF but still can be whiped out after they loose closecombat and break or if enemy units stand in the way of the withdrawing move, or there is no room to flee.

Fearless units ignore all these. They autopass any Leadershiptest which would otherwise risk that they break. The controlling player can't even say that the unit fails it's Leadershiptest voluntary in order to retreat from a superior foe which the unit can't hurt.

If a Fearless unit loses closecombat they take additional hits depending of the size of the opposing unit/s representing, that they are overrun by foes.


Directly translated into Epic Fearless would have the following effect:

Fearlessunits never make a withdrawal move. If they lose an assault they gain additional hits as usual but can make an armoursave against each.
Fearless units still receive Blastmakrers and can be broken. This doesn't reprent routing units but breaking down of inter-formation communication an cunfusion due to casualties. Even Fearless creature will jump into cover if a grenates is hurled against them ;)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Hate to say it after all the work done on the "Fearless charge", but I really like the idea that Fearless units do not make a withdrawal move. It solves a lot of the issues at a stroke. :blues:

However, there would have to be one slight modification because in E:A you can (and do) have formations containing both normal and Fearless troops. Here, you would have to allow the Fearless units to withdraw with their 'normal' colleagues to retain formation coherency.

What do others think??

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:29 pm 
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In Wh40k if a Fearless Character leads ordinary troops he doesn't chare his Fearless ability with them. If the troops he is attached too break he flees with them and can be "run down" by enemies as the troops will be.

On a further thought ithink if a whole formation is  Fearless then it should gain ATSKNF.




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Soren
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Fearless is a problem because of the many Chaos fearless units. I would do it the other way round and kill most of the fearless rules within Chaos lists. I fear all this proposals above do more troubles than they solve.

-What about fearless aircraft, they cannot withdraw.
- what about air assault, they count as one unit with non fearless parts. Do they have to withdraw? They count as one unit.
- what about commissar if all die but him. Most thies they have no armor save so they are useless if they get hits. And if the survives alone he is not even able to withdraw.

Sorry but this makes all things just more complicated and solves nothing. Most cases with fearless are really not straightforward if you begin to alter the rule. Let?s do it the other way around and dimish the usage of the rule.

my 0,002 cent.

Soren




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:50 pm 
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- Fearless Aircraft: They will take hits which they can save.
- Air Assault withparty Fearless  units: I don't see the problem. After the assault resolution roll all attacking formations are treated separately.
- Commissars: Ok there is a problem with my proposal, because no Imperial Guard unit has an Invulnerable Save. But the Commander and Supreme Commander have an ordinary Save. As in Wh40k the unit with the Commissar will flee along with the other units of the formation.
Here the original Fearless rules should take place.

So it bogs down to two versions which the playe rof the Fearless units can choose:
- Let the Fearless units stay where they are and suffer hits wich can be saved.
- Make a withdrawal move but Fearless units don't take casualties due to assault resolution roll or Blastmarkers.
The last one is only viable if the majority of the formation consits of non-Fearless units.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Who is about "forcing" rules fro mWh40k to Epic? I only make suggestions.
And i done't see why a rules mechanism which works in Wh40k couldn't be used in Epic too if it works there too?
You shouldn't shun a rule only because it originates from Wh40k.

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:09 pm 
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I like about taking saves if fearless unit wish to stay or alternatively moving away.

40k and EA are completely different games and should stay so. Fluff, races, some units, thats pretty much all the common stuff. Scale, game mechanics, tactics, level of detail, formations, all differ. Sure you can check, if 40k's four year cycle has produced new fancy rules to incorporate, but direct translation isnt going to work. Balancing each game is too different.

40k is pretty much 300pts epic on square feet table.
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Soren
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:03 pm 
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I completely disilike taking hits. Per definition they shouldn?t and I am opposed to everything which will alter this core rule in such a case. This is the wrong point of viewing.

No rule change which will make some units much more worse because some fan lists which are forced to get official by some fans will have troubles with this.

Lists have to be designed to have no problem which rules not vice versa.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Fearless is a problem because of the many Chaos fearless units.


Fearless is a problem for any Fearless formation.  The Chaos lists happen to have more of them but it's far from restricted to them.  Pretty much every large WE is Fearless and many smaller ones are as well.

===

We didn't force Fearless units to "move away" in the Handbook because not every Fearless unit has the ability to move over impassable terrain.  Without that ability, it's pretty easy to surround a single WE to the extent it cannot retreat when broken.  A Gargant, for instance, would be incredibly easy to eliminate - pop a few BMs on it, surround it with troops, and break it by fire - no retreat means destruction.

How prevalent is the "fearless scout" combo?  The only thing I can think of is a Commisar on an IG Scout formation and maybe the Slaanesh Knights (I can't recall off the top of my head).

Similarly, how common are formations that can do the "fearless barrier"?  The formation with the largest potential Fearless frontage in any army list is a Thousand Sons retinue (9 units), which I've played with a fair amount.  I've never had a game where they were in a position to completely surround someone to prevent movement.  They can be effective barriers for making units travel around them, stopping objective grabs and such, but they've never completely shut down a formation that I can recall.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:31 pm 
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They'll lose either the Fearless or the Scouts next time I revise the list.
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Soren
 Post subject: Fearless retreat
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:11 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jan. 11 2008,15:53)
QUOTE
Similarly, how common are formations that can do the "fearless barrier"? ?The formation with the largest potential Fearless frontage in any army list is a Thousand Sons retinue (9 units), [...]

Not exactly. Think about teleporting Plague zombies and an average dice roll for unit strength.......

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