Tactical Command
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Space Marine ideas
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=10365		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Crabowl [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
Hello, I'm somewhat new to these forums but here's some ideas for space marines.

Space Marine Squad -upgrade:

At the moment there's no way to use full 6th or 7th companies that follow the Codex Astartes chapter organization; 10 tactical squads and 3 squads per detachment don't mix (please don't ask why it matters). After browsing through other armies and seeing how marines are the only army that don't have any options with their detachment sizes (apart from extra razorbacks and hunters), I came up with the idea of reducing tactical detachment size to 20 marines/2 rhinos and allowing it to have tactical squad upgrade of 10 marines and a rhino.

Tactical Detachment: 4 Tactical smurfs plus transport, 200 points
Upgrades Allowed: Commander, Dreadnought(2), Razorback(4), Hunter, Vindicator(2), Tactical Squad

Tactical Squad: 2 Tactical smurfs plus transport, +100 points
Upgrades Allowed: Razorback(2)

Same values for other marines:

Terminator Detachment (325/+175)
Devastator Detachment (250/+125)
Assault Detachment (175/+100)
Scout Detachment (150/+75)

Rhinos -upgrade:

There's a bunch of examples in 40k and fluff where it's possible to swap jump packs for rhinos so why not make it possible even if it weren't all that smart. Having assault marines in rhinos might even make it possible for them vindicators to reach their target before getting blown to bits.

Assault Detachment: 4 Assault smurfs, 175 points
Upgrades Allowed: Commander, Vindicator(2), Assault Squad, Rhinos

Rhinos: Replaces jump packs with rhinos for the entire detachment and/or squad, +0 points
Upgrades Allowed: Razorback(4/6 with Assault Squad).

Razorback/Vindicator tuning:

And then there's the Vindicator. Nobody will ever take one of those regardless if it has MW or or it shoots rockets from its tail pipes as long as there's extra cheapo razorbacks available. So what I'm proposing for the cure is to raise the cost of razorback to 50/25 (50 for the 1st and 25 for the others). As for the Vindicator itself a speed boost to 30cm, Walker/Dozer Blade and drop the price to 75/50 (75 for the first and 50 for the second). I know that raising the cost of razorback is heresy but has anyone ever seen a single formation without one.

Oh I didn't dare to mention it on the squad section but imagine if you could mix detachments and squads any way you like..

- Crabowl
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
I would suggest crab you do a seperate list which takes all this into consideration and see what it looks like. The current list works well enough and though this sort of change is great background wise, altering a long established list for background reasons and impacting its balance is a no no. SO do a new list and stick it all in there, more chance of acceptance and you can address all the issues you are worried about.
Author:  Crabowl [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 01 2007,17:25)
QUOTE
SO do a new list and stick it all in there..

I kinda did that a while back and since then I haven't been too interested what 'officially' happens ruleswise.

After about 10 or so wins for codex marines against eldar (3k tournament rules) we figured it's time to tune down marines. Few more games and minor nerfs later, nothing changed and eldar were still being butchered. Then we tried playing with this list and now the score is 14-2-1 for marines (1-2-1 with this list). It barely resembles the codex list anymore but it's fun/challenging to play and it even has a useful vindicator (at least against eldar).

And the list can probably be found somewhere around here (assuming attach works with pdf's)..
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(Crabowl @ Nov. 29 2007,17:03)
QUOTE
After about 10 or so wins for codex marines against eldar (3k tournament rules) we figured it's time to tune down marines.

*WOW*  What kind of Marine army is being fielded that can so seriously kick the cans of the Eldar?  And what the heck are the Eldar fielding that they're losing that much?

I've never heard of anything like that!
Author:  Charad [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
I haven't heard that either. I'm eager to hear more, because I have always thought that eldar has best gear against marines. :)
Author:  Moscovian [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
Ditto.  lob those army lists up here so we can see the nitty-gritty.  As for the list you wouldn't be the first person to make a Space Marines variant list.  You might get a following with it if it plays smooth enough.  Post it to the wiki page if you feel like championing it (see link in Hena's sig).
Author:  Nicodemus [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
That list have Warlord with FF2+. Librarian has Macro CC attack.

If I would make army with that list I would field at least two Devastators with squad upgrade, and no tacticals. 6 Terminators for 500 points feels quite killy with ATSNKF.



Not conserning only this list but is it possible to make Librarian Supreme Commander (with FF and CC attack) or Chaplain Supreme Commander (with Inspiring) or is it only possible to do normal Supreme without Librarians or Chaplains special atributes?
Author:  Soren [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
I rarely stand a chance against the Eldar list of my friend. And to be honest I?m quite good in fielding my Marines, but the Eldar formations outmatch me in every category. so a 10:0 is eighter complete incompetence of the Eldar player or he simply uses completely wrong units.
Author:  Heavens To Betsy [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
Originally posted by Nicodemus
Not conserning only this list but is it possible to make Librarian Supreme Commander (with FF and CC attack) or Chaplain Supreme Commander (with Inspiring) or is it only possible to do normal Supreme without Librarians or Chaplains special atributes?I made this mistake until corrected by someone on the Specialist Games forum.

The Supreme Commander is not an upgrade of either Captain, Chaplain or Librarian.
Captain has Leader, Invulnerable Save, Commander and Power Weapon.
Chaplain has Leader, Invulnerable Save, Inspiring and Power Weapon.
Librarian has Leader, Invulnerable Save, Smite and Power Weapon.
Supreme Commander has Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander and Power Weapon.

This means that Librarians get both Smite and Power Weapon whereas the Black Legion list specifies that Sorcerer Lords only get Warp Bolt and not the Daemon Weapon.

This is how it was explained to me, anyway.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(Heavens To Betsy @ Nov. 30 2007,13:02)
QUOTE
Supreme Commander has Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander and Power Weapon.

Technically, the Marine Supreme Commander has Leader, and Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander and Power Weapon.

But most people tend to gloss over the face that the supreme commander ability *includes* leader as well.
Author:  Crabowl [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(Nicodemus @ Nov. 30 2007,08:59)
QUOTE
That list have Warlord with FF2+. Librarian has Macro CC attack.

Whoops, that FF2+ is a typo but the way I read it on the commander section in the rulebook, Librarian isn't specified not to have a Power Weapon but it also has Smite attack (unless there's some rule somewhere that a single model can't have both small arms and assault weapons in which case the Librarian shouldn't have a CCMW). Besides it feels kinda silly that Librarian would be the only character that doesn't get a skill or stat upgrade compared to the others (Captain gets Commander, Chaplain gets Inspiring, Librarian swaps CCMW to FFMW?).

(Nicodemus @ Nov. 30 2007,08:59)
QUOTE
Not conserning only this list but is it possible to make Librarian Supreme Commander (with FF and CC attack) or Chaplain Supreme Commander (with Inspiring) or is it only possible to do normal Supreme without Librarians or Chaplains special atributes?

There's supposed to be 4 different character upgrades (Captain, Chaplain, Librarian and a Commander). Only a Commander can be upgraded to a Supreme Commander. It would be possible to take a Commander upgrade but if you don't go all the way to a Supreme Commander it's a waste of points. I probably should change the formation entry to something else than Commander, like a Character or something.

The answer why marines have beaten eldar so far is warhounds and popcorn. Eldars are good because they can have a lot of activations, nasty popup attacks etc. However when you use 'pendulum' warhounds and eldar's crappy morale to weaken them before beating them to a pulp, they don't feel so tough anymore. I call them 'pendulum' hounds because they simply work that way - double move (or advance in some cases) and two barrels of plasma on falcons or some other nasty eldar thingy. Quite often the eldar formation either breaks or takes so many blast markers that it doesn't do anything on its next round and when it's eldar turn they usually break the hound and it runs back home to regroup (plasma is cooling so who cares), and on turn 3 the hound is ready to go again.

And here's one codex list that has beaten eldar a few times:

dev smurfs+razor+hunter 350
tac smurfs+razor+hunter+sup 500 (BTS that camps at home)
tac smurfs+razor+hunter 400
whirlwinds 300
warhound 250
warhound 250
warhound 250
thunderbolts 150
land speeders 200
scouts+razor 175
scouts+razor 175

That's 11 activations and the eldars usually have 13 (and they fail 2 on average). Marines have ridiculously resilient units - tac smurfs with 5 vehicles and 6 marine stands or 4 scouts and 3 vehicles for 175 pts.. It takes a lot of effort for eldar to break even one marine formation while it takes a lucky shot from marines to do it to an eldar formation. When an eldar formation breaks it's possible that it doesn't regroup during the entire game and even if it does it won't do anything on the next turn.

The fact that most activations are cheap makes it possible for marines (and eldar) to sacrifice some by either luring out the enemy assault units or simply triple moving and dancing around the enemy titans or units that would do more damage somewhere else. Oh look there's 175 pts worth of scouts standing 7cm around your 700 points megaunit. At the same time warhounds do their banzai attacks and kill something that could actually do something. It also doesn't matter if the enemy does an air assault since in most cases they can kill a ~250pt unit and they have spent 500-700 points to do that assault.

I don't remember the eldar lists too well but there's been some that concentrate more on aircraft, air assault, falcons, disrupt barrage, aspects, and I think one had a lot of guardians in it too (I played 3 or 4 games with eldars but it didn't make any difference, they sucked even more). Nastiest things the eldar have are those long range super-heavies, swooping hawks, falcons and bombers. Titans are nice too but they give activation superiority to the other side and so far haven't been too useful (they've either died when being too bold or they've been the only activation remaining when all others have been broken or destroyed). Eldars also have limitations on what they can take and they will have to spend points on less than optimal formations while the only limitation with marines is that they can only get four warhounds. Marines are also more mobile than eldars and it's relatively easy to ignore some eldar formations and concentrate on the ones that actually can do something.

Maybe we suck on both sides but so far the games have been all about activations, blast markers, initiative rating, and blind luck.
Author:  Ginger [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas
An interesting list, but not the strongest in my limited experience - which suggests that your opponent has not been playing to the Eldar strengths.

- Hit-&-Run to make an assault, win it and consolidate a full move to support the next assault (or escape)
- Several Guardian formations to get the Avatar, the third move, and the possibility of commander to make combined assaults
- Storm Serpents to deliver long range assaults by Guardians or Aspects
- "tooled up" Guardians (with Wraithlords and Wraithguards) which will quite happily anahilate entire smurf formations in assault for limited losses (up to 21x 4+ or 3+ attacks if positioned correctly)
- very cheap artillery with disrupt
- Inspiring characters in the Aspect formations, especially Warp Spiders for clipping (first-strike) assaults
- Shining Spears (will make very short work of the warhounds)

Eldar work best in counter-attacks or by making the most of their mobility to avoid combat until favourable - I suspect your opponent has been pushing formations forward where the smurfs have shot them to piecies one by one (which is what they do best)
Author:  Crabowl [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(Ginger @ Nov. 30 2007,23:33)
QUOTE
An interesting list, but not the strongest in my limited experience - which suggests that your opponent has not been playing to the Eldar strengths.

- Hit-&-Run to make an assault, win it and consolidate a full move to support the next assault (or escape)
- Several Guardian formations to get the Avatar, the third move, and the possibility of commander to make combined assaults
- Storm Serpents to deliver long range assaults by Guardians or Aspects
- "tooled up" Guardians (with Wraithlords and Wraithguards) which will quite happily anahilate entire smurf formations in assault for limited losses (up to 21x 4+ or 3+ attacks if positioned correctly)
- very cheap artillery with disrupt
- Inspiring characters in the Aspect formations, especially Warp Spiders for clipping (first-strike) assaults
- Shining Spears (will make very short work of the warhounds)

Eldar work best in counter-attacks or by making the most of their mobility to avoid combat until favourable - I suspect your opponent has been pushing formations forward where the smurfs have shot them to piecies one by one (which is what they do best)

Only one of those work against '82-97' and that's the 120cm disrupt barrage. Depending on the eldar formation(s) the marine player only moves up to 82 or 97cm away and uses 6 or 7 activations to eat the eldar activations. One hound may have been activated at this point if there's been a sweet enough target within 105cm (falcons, night spinners, engines, anything that would be hard to kill with infantry rockets). The remaining eldar activations most likely break that hound and two more steps in. Usually there's 2 broken eldar formations and 1 hound at this point. If marines win the strategy roll on turn 2, the hounds are positioned as far away as possible from the eldar formations that could do any damage to them while they cause some blast markers with bolters. If eldars win the roll they usually break one of the hounds. Depending on the strategy roll the eldars are 1-3 formations short and marines win the second round activation game as well. There may be some other marine formations closer than the 82cm line (like devs and hunter) but they've only moved in to cause that missing blast if the hounds couldn't do it (and blast markers on bombers). There's practically never any assaults before turn 3 and only if they're 'won' before rolling any dice (BMs, outnumber and FF clipping).

Anyway, with the new list the number of warhounds came down and it's much more challenging now.
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine ideas

(Crabowl @ Dec. 01 2007,14:04)
QUOTE
Anyway, with the new list the number of warhounds came down and it's much more challenging now.

How much terrain do you guys typically use?
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