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Lance and TK rule proposition
rpr
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:20 am 
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I would add following rule concerning Lances (vs. normal hits) and TK (vs. normal macro hits). In following points, "special hit" is that from lance or TK when compared to normal plain or macro-weapon hit.

 1. if a unit with reinforced armor takes hits from normal and special attacks, normal hits are handled first
 2. if normal and special hits are dealt to a formation with mixture of normal and reinforced armor, special hits must be maxed to reinforced armor units (a bit like AP and AT shots against LV/V or LV/i formations)

Bit more explanation:
The first one would mean that if a titan with shields gets hit by both normal and lance weapons, the normal hits would drop the shields first.

The second one means that if a formation with 4 RA and 4 normal targets get hit with 3 TK and 3 MW, the hits are dealt to 6 closest ones, but must be dealt within those 6 targets so that all TKs hit RA targets if possible.

This rule is intended to remove some gamey aspects and make lances in mixed formation worth something.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:23 am 
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That's how we play it in my gaming circle anyway.

Normal hits, then Lance, then Macro, then TK.

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rpr
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:54 am 
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(Hena @ Oct. 25 2007,13:42)
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Umm... rpr, i'm a bit confused at what you exactly wish. You want a separate segment for Lance or put it into MW allocation group?


No, I would have it in same group as earlier, but just define the order of multiple hits (or assigning the hits) - as now it is a bit unclear or allows player to say 'ok this warhound took 2 lance hits and 2 normal - okay, first lances to shields, then I roll armor for normal hits...' (same applies to MW/TK)

Similarily, if a predator/land raider unit is hit with mix of normal/lance or MW/TK, the current rules (if I have understood them correctly) allows target to assign hits very gamely.

So, this entire rule change would be similar to "first normal, then MW" rule "change" (when compared to experimental we used for a while) which made hit allocation MUCH better, just in smaller scale.

If there would be 4 phases that would change hit allocation (more hits to closer targets), but I would be okay with that, too. I can go with either and that 4 phase system would be easier to understand and less new rules.

Hm, speaking of hit allocation and barrages.. what about MW barrage? I mean here that are the MW barrage hits handled in the MW or normal hit phase?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 pm 
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So, this entire rule change would be similar to "first normal, then MW" rule "change" (when compared to experimental we used for a while) which made hit allocation MUCH better, just in smaller scale.


I think it's not a bad idea to define when in the hit allocation series the Lance hits are assigned.

Hm, speaking of hit allocation and barrages.. what about MW barrage? I mean here that are the MW barrage hits handled in the MW or normal hit phase?
MW phase, where applicable.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Rpr is raising a very good question that I do not think has been ironed out in the rules. As written, dice for all types of weapon are rolled together, the hits being separated into different groups which are then allocated in separate rounds. So normal hits are allocated to units, then MW hits may end up allocated to the same units, before all hits are resolved.

While TK hits are controversial for other reasons, Lance weapons sit uneasily between normal and MW because their speciality only affects reinforced armoured vehicles. This raises several questions that ideally should be spelt out in the rules:-

1) ?Should they be a separate allocation group?

2) Should they have a target priority list like TK weapons?

2) If combined in a target allocation group, which one should it be; Normal, MW or TK?

I might add, in the past Neal Hunt has quoted the intent to "cause the greatest number of hits across the widest number of units in the formation". The point here being the keeping them in a separate group of their own will result in them being assigned to units that already have a hit, while as Rpr suggests, putting them in a current group may result in the special ability being wasted deliberately.

Given that allocation is "front to back" is it acceptable to provide the above guidance with an example of a combining Lance in the MW allocation group? First the  lance weapons are targetted against the most appropriate targets, followed by other MW hits?




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Ginger
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:50 pm 
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I agree with you here Hena - put it with MW, but use common sense to maximise the possible damage caused (which in effect is "targetting" by another name).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:05 pm 
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I think putting it in the MW group (With a pre-defined order) wouldn't be a bad thing.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Lance and TK rule proposition
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:45 pm 
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I agree it would be useful to have it in more detail and rpr's suggestions make sense to me.

Unfortunately, when you get right down to it, virtually every kind of special fire can be impacted by the order of allocation.  A defender would not only want to put MW/TK hits on cheap, low-save units, but also Disrupt hits, because Disrupt only makes a difference if the target makes its save.  Lance would go on non-RA targets.  Ignore cover hits would go on units with good armor saves, or on units that weren't in cover to begin with.

I can't think of a good way to manage diverse hit types.  I'm open to suggestions.

That said, I would like to avoid breaking down additional "rounds" of allocation.  The more "rounds" you break out, the more you concentrate fire on the front of the formation.  That could potentially cause substantial changes in the way screening units function.  To illustrate, in an "overkill" situation, multiple hits will be allocated to the front group members.  6 hits on a group of 1 Nob, 3 Boyz, 1 Grot would result in 2 hits on the grot (assuming it was in front) and one hit on everyone else.  If you break that into 2 rounds by some means, the grot will die on the first round and soak up less damage. The converse is true as well - a high armor unit  in the front might end up surviving muliple rounds of allocation, getting greater benefit out of the armor save than they would now.

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