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The Grand Unified Theory of Why I think Demolisher Cannons are OK.
Demolisher Cannons are used on three different vehicles: the Vindicator, the Baneblade, and the Leman Russ Demolisher. (A fourth one to be considered would be the Leman Russ Thunderer.) The Vindicator has been decried as insufficient for its points, and for the Space Marines in general. The Baneblade has long been the target of being upgraded with little consensus on how to do it. The Leman Russ Demolisher has had a little attention paid to it, and I think it should have more, but only as part of a larger discussion on the Leman Russ and its variants. I intend to show that while the Demolisher Cannon has been the topic of discussion for upgrading, it is my belief that it should be left alone as-is.
I am going to do that through three different discussions. The first one is a discussion on how when the Vindicator is compared to the Predator Destructor, another Space Marine armored vehicle that is markedly similar to the Vindicator in a majority of its stats, it is actually more similar than they initially appear aside from one difference. The second discussion is about a comparison between the Shadowsword and the Baneblade. The discussion will center around how these two very similar tanks, which have the same points cost, can be made more equal in an effort to make the Baneblade an equally worthy choice, something it is not considered to be now. The third discussion will be about comparing and contrasting the basic Leman Russ, the Leman Russ Demolisher and all of the other Leman Russ variants than can be described via WH40K supplements and bought from Forgeworld or easily converted from normal Leman Russ miniatures. The original intent of my work was to try to make sure that all of the Leman Russ variants were equal in value to the basic Leman Russ so that they could be swapped about without concern of costs. That goal can be accomplished, but I think a cleaner and easier solution would be something different.
The Vindicator is a tank that can be found amongst almost all of the Space Marine chapters. It shares the same Rhino chassis as the Predators, Whirlwinds, Hunters, and Razorbacks. Aside from weapons and troop carrying ability, as expected, all of these Rhino variants are pretty much the same. Except for one. The Vindicator has a 20cm movement rate compared to the 30cm movement rate of the Rhino and it variants. There are three different ways to attack the ?Vindicator Problem? ? Increase the speed of the Vindicator to 30cm to match the other Rhino variants and then make sure the weapons are of equal value to the others, leave the speed of the Vindicator at 20cm and increase the firepower of the weapon(s) to compensate for the lack of speed, or the hybrid solution of splitting the difference on speed and increase firepower or special abilities to make the tank worthwhile.
I personally advocate that the speed be increased to 30cm to match the other Rhino variants and the Demolisher Cannon be left as it is. This is derived from my analysis , as seen below, and from an understanding of how maneuver warfare works and how the Space Marines would get better benefit from a fast moving platform than from a slower, more powerful tank. (Previously I had advocated a slightly different solution of no change at all needed, based upon erroneous calculations.)
Look at the discussion below, reprinted from a post I had made about the Vindicator and see how I came to my conclusion. The process used is used for the follow-on discussions, yet will be omitted for brevity.
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The Vindicator has the Demolisher Cannon, which has a 30cm range a AP3+/AT4+ rating, and the Ignore Cover special ability. Let's say that there will be an equal chance of an infantry or armored vehicle target available to shoot and that the player is not predisposed to shooting at one over the other. That would mean that you average the to-hit probabilities, 66.667% against infantry and 50% for armored vehicles, to a 58.333% chance of hitting something. Since various weapons have different ranges, and range does matter, as a quick way to represent the benefits of range let's multiply the probability to kill something by the number of 15cm increments the range of the weapon has. So for the 30cm ranged weapon we multiply by 2 (30cm/15cm increments = 2) the 58.333% chance of hitting something to get a 116.667%-brackets number. To factor in the Ignore Cover special ability, which ignores the -1 to-hit modifier (16.667% shift in probability) for cover and negates infantry cover saves, we'll multiply the final number by 1.16667 giving a final 136.111%-brackets number.
The Predator Destructor has an autocannon, which has a 45cm range and a AP5+/AT6+ rating, and two Heavy Bolters which have a 30cm range and a AP5+ rating. Let's say that there will be an equal chance of an infantry or armored vehicle target available to shoot and that the player is not predisposed to shooting at one over the other. That would mean that you average the to-hit probabilities of each weapon, multiply by the number of range brackets they can reach, and add them together. The autocannon has a 33.333% against infantry and 16.666% for armored vehicles, averaging to a 25.0% chance of hitting something. Multiply this by the 3 range brackets it can reach and you get the number 75.0%-brackets. The heavy bolters have a 33.333% against infantry and 0.00% for armored vehicles, averaging to a 16.667% chance of hitting something. Multiply this by the 2 range brackets they can reach and you get the number 33.333%-brackets. Add all three numbers together and you get 141.667%-brackets.
Compare the 2 numbers: 136.111%-brackets for the Vindicator and 141.667%-brackets for the Predator Destructor and you see that the Vindicator has 96.61% as much firepower as the Predator Destructor. I'll call that close enough to even to say that the two tanks have equal firepower.
But there is still one difference between the Vindicator and the Predator Destructor: their speed. Assuming that the universally agreed upon change of giving the Predator Destructor a 4+ FF rating holds true the two vehicles are identical in stats except for their weapons (which I have shown to be effectively equal) and their speed. Since the two vehicles have the same points cost it stands to reason that the Vindicator should get a speed increase from 20cm to 30cm. That should be sufficient to make the Vindicator worth its points.
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There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Baneblade, with the general consensus that it needs improvement. Opinion is divided from there regarding how to go about improving the Baneblade. Most of the discussion goes around the ideas of improving the Battle Cannon to something better, improving the Demolisher Cannon to something better, improving or adding some of the special abilities, or a combination of the above. I personally lean to the idea of improving the Battle Cannon to something better. I believe that the main gun of a super heavy tank such as the Baneblade should be something better than the main gun of the Leman Russ. Since one of the design philosophies of the games is that a weapon of a certain name is supposed to have the same stats across different units I also think that the ripple effect of changing the Demolisher Cannon for the Baneblade will lead to troubles balancing other vehicles that use the Demolisher Cannon. Thus I have opted for the more conservative and safer route of changing the Baneblade via avenues other than the Demolisher Cannon.
Below you will find a comparison of the Baneblade as originally published, the Shadowsword as originally published, and proposed Baneblade fixes. Numbers that are in brackets [] after a weapon listing is the value I have generated from my ?system? for the value of the weapon. Also amongst the weapons you will see descriptions in brackets that are modifiers for accounting for differences in the units being compared. Typically this will be differences in FF values or speed.
Baneblade - Book stats
Type: WE
Speed: 15cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor, DC: 3
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Battle Cannon, 75cm, AP4+/AT4+ [2.500]
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+ [0.750]
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward Arc [0.681]
Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.333]
2x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [1.000]
Total Firepower = 5.264
Shadowsword - Book stats
Type: WE
Speed: 15cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor, DC: 3
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 5+
Weapons:
Volcano Cannon, 90cm, MW2+, TK(D3), Fixed Forward Arc [8.300]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.677]
[Degrade the FF value from baseline 4+ to 5+ for vehicle] [-0.500]
Total Firepower = 8.467
Since there is no discussion about the Shadowsword be underpointed or having bad stats we should try to improve the stats of the weapons so as to raise the firepower of the Baneblade. Among the obvious fixes would be to increase the number of heavy bolters by adding 2 twin-linked heavy bolters. Let?s then try to improve the Baneblade by replacing the Battle Cannon with a Mega Battle Cannon. Since the stats of the Mega Battle Cannon are undefined we will try taking the Battle Cannon and making it a macro-weapon, and then we will try by improving the to-hit probability and range to create the Mega Battle Cannon.
Baneblade ? Proposal #1
Type: WE
Speed: 15cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor, DC: 3
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Mega Battle Cannon, 75cm, MW4+ [5.000]
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+ [0.750]
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward Arc [0.681]
Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.333]
2x Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, 30cm, AP4+ [1.000]
2x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [1.000]
Total Firepower = 8.764 (103.5% of the Shadowsword)
Baneblade ? Proposal #2
Type: WE
Speed: 15cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor, DC: 3
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Mega Battle Cannon, 90cm, AP2+/AT2+ [5.000]
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+ [0.750]
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward Arc [0.681]
Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.333]
2x Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, 30cm, AP4+ [1.000]
2x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [1.000]
Total Firepower = 8.764 (103.5% of the Shadowsword)
By my system both proposals are effectively the same firepower, and both are within 3.5% of the Shadowsword, sufficiently close that I don?t think there will be considerable problems. If anything, considering how Shadowswords are typically employed as stand-off fire support the modifier that was used to bring the Volcano Cannon down from 16.600 to 8.300 (0.5 for Fixed Forward Arc) may be over-stated, showing the Shadowsword to be weaker than it really is.
Please consider both proposals for the Baneblade. I feel both address the firepower problem that the Baneblade suffers from and does so in a clean way, by increasing the main gun from a mundane weapon to something a little more exotic that befits a super heavy tank, and by leaving the Demolisher Cannon alone.
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The Leman Russ is the basic main battle tank of the Imperial Guard. Games Workshop has over the years introduced several variants of it in an effort to provide more variety and to fulfill various roles that a basic Leman Russ would have difficulty fulfilling. Forgeworld has produced several of these variants for us to use in games, with p.170 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook providing stats for several of them. I made an effort to evaluate the firepower of the basic Leman Russ and compare the firepower of all of the variants to it. Here are the results:
Leman Russ (Basic) - Book stats
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Battle Cannon, 75cm, AP4+/AT4+ [2.500]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
Total Firepower = 3.667
Leman Russ Conqueror - Book stats
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Conqueror Cannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT5+ [1.000]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
Total Firepower = 1.500
There are a couple of interesting things about these Conqueror stats: 1) the tank has a 30cm speed compared to the 20cm speed of the basic Leman Russ, 2) Not all of the weapons that are associated with the Conqueror, such as the Storm Bolter are shown, 3) The are no rules or anything to reflect the advantages of going to the Conqueror Cannon, 4) The very basic Heavy Bolters are not shown, 5) This tank, for the most part, has poor stats.
When you look at the stats for the Destroyer and Executioner on page 170, both of which are made by Forgeworld also, you notice that they have speed 30cm and no Heavy Bolters either. (We?ll address the Thunderer later.) It appears that when the stats were made there was an effort to keep the stats in line with the miniatures being sold by Forgeworld and that the lack of Heavy Bolters was compensated by the increased speed. From this we will draw an assumption (a rather shaky one at that) that a speed change of 10cm is equal to the firepower of 2 Heavy Bolters = 0.667 for Leman Russ and possibly other Armored Vehicles. By working with this assumption you get Heavy Bolter armed versions of the Forgeworld tanks if you kitbash the design or if you use Forgeworld turrets with GW LRuss chassis, which is what I do. Conversely, if you want to have a ?cavalry? version of the stock Leman Russ or the Leman Russ Demolisher you now have a conversion factor to work with. To address all of the ?interesting things? found with the Conqueror stats and to make the tank more like the background
?Armed with the Conqueror Cannon, as opposed to the standard Battle Cannon, the Conqueror sacrifices outright destructive power in exchange for improved mobility and accuracy while firing on the move. Conquerors come standard with co-axial mounted storm bolters and searchlights, removing the need to expose a crewmember to fend off enemy infantry.?
I propose these revised stats to be used for the Conqueror:
Leman Russ Conqueror ? Proposal #1
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Conqueror Cannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT5+ [1.000]
-and- Small Arms, Extra Attack (+1 FF attack) [0.500]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
Storm Bolter, 15cm, AP4+ [0.250]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.917 (79.55% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Conqueror ? Proposal #2
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Conqueror Cannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT5+ [1.000]
-and- Small Arms, Extra Attack (+1 FF attack) [0.500]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
Storm Bolter, 15cm, AP4+ [0.250]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.917 (79.55% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Demolisher ? as per book
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover [1.361]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
Improve Firefight rating from 4+ to 3+ [0.167]
2x Plasma Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, Slow Firing [1.000]
Total Firepower = 3.028 (82.57% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Destroyer Tank Hunter ? as per book
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 6+
Weapons:
Laser Destroyer, 75cm, AP5+/AT3+ [2.500]
Degrade Firefight rating from 4+ to 6+ [-0.333]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.834 (77.30% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Destroyer Tank Hunter ? Proposed alternate version
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 6+
Weapons:
Laser Destroyer, 75cm, AP5+/AT3+ [2.500]
Degrade Firefight rating from 4+ to 6+ [-0.333]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.834 (77.30% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Executioner - Book stats
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Plasma Destroyer, 60cm, MW5+, Slow Firing [1.333]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.500 (68.18% of stock Leman Russ)
In case you haven?t noticed the Leman Russ variants have been coming out to about 80% of the firepower of the stock Leman Russ. In an effort to maintain that (you?ll see why later) I suggest that the to-hit of the Plasma Destroyer be upgraded from MW5+ to MW4+.
Leman Russ Executioner ? Proposal #1
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Plasma Destroyer, 60cm, MW4+, Slow Firing [2.000]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 3.167 (86.36% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Executioner ? Proposal #2
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Plasma Destroyer, 60cm, MW4+, Slow Firing [2.000]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
Total Firepower = 3.167 (86.36% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Exterminator ? Proposed Stats
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Twin Autocannon. 45cm, AP4+/AT5+ [1.250]
3x Heavy Bolters, 30cm. AP5+ [1.000]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.917 (79.55% of stock Leman Russ)
What do we have so far? We have 5 variants of the stock Leman Russ: the Conqueror, the Demolisher, the Destroyer, The Executioner, and the Exterminator coming in at 80% +/- 5% of the firepower capability of the stock Leman Russ. Normally I would argue that the Demolisher should be upgraded to match the firepower of the stock Leman Russ since they are the same points and interchangeable in the Tank Squadron company upgrades for the Steel Legion. The only realistic way to do this would be to upgrade the Demolisher Cannon, resulting in an upgraded Leman Russ Demolisher but also requiring that the Vindicator and the Baneblade be changed to make them equivalent to their comparison units yet again. Considering the number of variants that come in at around 80% effectiveness I think that it would be worthwhile to keep the process simple and easy and cost these variants at 175 points for three tanks. (80% of 200 points is 160 points, but since there is more to the tank than just the weapons it should be rounded up to 175 points.)
There are two more variants that need to be considered: The Leman Russ Thunderer and the Leman Russ Anihilator. As you will soon see the stats for these are so inferior to the stock Leman Russ, and the variants, that tweeking them to bring them up to the other variants would be a futile exercise since the end result would not match the original intent or the background. I believe that they should be given point costs independent of the other tanks.
Leman Russ Thunderer Siege Tank - Book stats
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover [1.361]
Total Firepower = 1.361 (37.11% of stock Leman Russ)
Leman Russ Thunderer Siege Tank ? Proposal #1
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover [1.361]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.028 (55.30% of stock Leman Russ)
Suggested point cost = 125 points
Leman Russ Thunderer Siege Tank ? Proposal #2
Type: AV
Speed: 20cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover [1.361]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.028 (55.30% of stock Leman Russ)
Suggested point cost = 125 points for 3 units in the formation
Leman Russ Annihilator ? Proposed Stats
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armor: 4+ Reinforced Armor
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
Twin Linked Lascannon, AT4+ [0.750]
Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ [0.500]
2x Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+ [0.667]
+10cm Speed compared to base (30cm instead of 20cm speed) [0.667]
Total Firepower = 2.584 (70.47% of stock Leman Russ)
Suggested point cost = 150 points for 3 units in the formation
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Summary ? With the Vindicator and its use of the Demolisher I propose that the tank can receive its needed upgrade, in a way more beneficial to Space Marine operational tactics by increasing the speed of the vehicle from 20cm to 30cm, making it match all of the like Rhino based vehicles. For the Baneblade I have proposed that it receive its needed upgrade by giving the universally agreed upon extra heavy bolters and by improving the main gun, in one of two ways, to something more befitting the main gun of a super heavy tank. For the Leman Russ Demolisher I have shown that it is inferior to the stock Leman Russ, yet instead of being upgraded I have proposed that it should have its points, and the points of most other Leman Russ variants, set at 175 points. All of these suggestions are done without major work, upheaval, negotiation, or upgrading of the Demolisher Cannon.
After reviewing this please playtest these suggestions at your convenience. They are only suggestions for consideration and should be implemented only after playtesting. Thank you for your time and efforts regarding this.
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I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...
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The +1 FFEA for the Conqueror cannon is a good idea perhabs.
