Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 14 posts ] 

Overwatch problem
Markconz
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:24 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
I would just leave it as is because:

1. No one has complained about it until now, which would suggest that if it is a problem then it is not a major one.  Neal has wisely said that ERC won't be introducing anything new into the review at this stage.

2. Working out the shooting using the mechanics you describe, or other variations has the potential to be confusing (it's been tried in previous epic systems) which is why Jervis opted for the current 'simple but it works ok most of the time' approach.

3. It is possible to explain any problems in terms of abstractions. For example it just represents the fact that if things are sufficiently speedy (eg eldar skimmers) then they can cross certain gaps without effective fire being bought against them. There are examples of this from modern combat. For example the first guy to sprint across a narrow gap (doorway, narrow street) won't be hit because even shooters who are 'overwatching' the gap, cannot possibly react fast enough (axonal firing in the human brain is about 1/10000 the speed of a computer).

Yes there are situations where it is a bit weird, but it will just encourage players to pick 'wide open' fields of fire which is not a bad thing, and most of the time it works fine.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:16 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Jul. 23 2007,07:53)
QUOTE
3. In this case the area being watched it's a bit more larger than a doorway :D. But in most cases everything can be explained to one way or the other. So I'll stick to mechanics wanted and then craft the explanation to suit it.

The area is larger than a doorway or street, but if that is the case the thing moving is typically something considerably faster than an infantryman. Ie eldar skimmers that in real terms may be breaking the sound barrier as they speed across a gap.  You can't hit them because you had to start firing before you saw them.  Once it's visible and you can react it is too late.  Your shells won't move fast enough to hit them.

Ie it is just as easy to argue that your 'solution' is creating a problem in a system that simulates perfectly what should happen!

But anyway like you say this debate could wait until next time around... ;)

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
mageboltrat
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:48 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:07 pm
Posts: 1015
I actually really like it, I have been known to do a march move with Assault Marines and use it to hop between cover, even managed to sneak around the back of a overwatched reaver with it.  I never had any complaints by my opponents. It really nicely stimulated a unit making a break for cover, and mitigates the overwatch's ability to stall the game.




_________________
Image
My Photobucket
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Mephiston
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262
I generally prefer this version of overwatch to the SM1 snap fire option! Hena in SM1 you would move one model along the path you expected to move and your opponent would shout SNAP FIRE when they wanted to fire! All in all not very elegant.

Plus if the overwatch on garrison rule is accepted I think moving formations will need some form of protection.
Top
 Profile  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:03 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Jul. 23 2007,08:48)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Jul. 23 2007,11:16)
QUOTE
The area is larger than a doorway or street, but if that is the case the thing moving is typically something considerably faster than an infantryman. Ie eldar skimmers that in real terms may be breaking the sound barrier as they speed across a gap.  You can't hit them because you had to start firing before you saw them.  Once it's visible and you can react it is too late.  Your shells won't move fast enough to hit them.

Well those are moving twice (perhaps 3 times due to non-linear lenghts) as fast as infantry. So they aren't going too fast. All the speeds are more like "combat speeds" as they don't want to hit a power pole and wreck themselves. As I said, everything can eb explained away.

Lol that is ridiculous! Don't try and tell me eldar skimmers travel at 30kmh!  :p   The speed characteristic is an abstraction for game balance that represents strategic movement - NOT direct speed ratios between infantry and tanks.  Come on that is just fundamental stuff...  

I agree with magebolt that the current system adds something to the game. I like being able to rocket from building to building with jetbikes or assault troops to sneak up on a target. Your proposals would destroy that, and on no solid 'realism' basis either (quite the opposite it seems).

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:29 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Just to be clear, everyone is playing with potential OW fire at the end of each move, right?  If you're taking an action with multiple moves (double or march), you do each move individually, with the opponent having a chance to fire at the end of each move, i.e. a march move would be "single move - potential OW - single move - potential OW - single move - potential OW."

If terrain is close enough that you can hop from terrain to terrain in a single move, then it's just not a good spot for OW.  Next time pick a spot with better fields of fire.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(mageboltrat @ Jul. 23 2007,04:48)
QUOTE
I actually really like it, I have been known to do a march move with Assault Marines and use it to hop between cover, even managed to sneak around the back of a overwatched reaver with it. ?I never had any complaints by my opponents.

If you don't count "hopping round the shop swearing" as a complaint, which I believe was my reaction upon discovering my Reaver couldn't shoot!   :p

I'm in two minds about it. It can be a very unpleasant surprise, and very unrealistic - in this case, a detachment of assault troops, hopping round a titan until they're out of it's fire arcs was rather unsatisfying, at least from a realism point of view (did the princept just not notice them?), given that they were in clear line-of-sight for most of their journey.

On the other hand, if a formation dives from one major piece of cover to another, that seems less unreasonable (they're just not out in the open for long enough). The opposite problem happens in Necromunda - if you poke your nose out of cover, even for a split second, you can get blasted and left without cover, which is equally unrealistic, especially when making a dash past a small gap in the cover.

Personally, I think I'm okay with it - it can be a very "games-mechanic" sort of tactic, but in that it promotes hugging cover, I guess it's relatively realistic.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Sytoru
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:49 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Fishguard
It would be incredibly difficult to apply the rules for allocating hits/casualty removal correctly if you could OW a formation at any point during their move. Hits are applied from front to back and then individual saves are made for each unit within a formation that has been hit. If you could fire at any point during the move, rather than at the end of the move, you would need to know exactly where each was in relation to each other as well as to the OW formation.
  I appreciate that many, probably most if not all, people just work out hits/casualties and then remove the appropriate number from front to back and that this is the way my little group has decided to do it; but this is not, strictly speaking, in accordance with the rules. Stick with the way it is. If a unit can more from out of LoS to out of LoS in a standard single move then it can't be OW'd.

-S
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Overwatch problem
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:57 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Yeah, those problems of hit allocation and such could be handled in the same way flak shots are handled as the aircraft go zooming past.

But I think that's missing the point.

As someone pointed out, movement rates are assumed to be tactical.  They include hugging any available cover, leap frogging, zig-zagging and so on.

To use the Assault Marine v Reaver Titan example, the Marines wouldn't move en masse from cover point to cover point.  They would move by teams, which would probably further subdivide as individuals.  You have 20 guys in a dispersed formation with jump packs moving erratically at high speeds over a relatively short distance of 500-1000 meters over the course of ~5 minutes (assuming Marching speed).  Factoring in minor cover (i.e. not represted by actual terrain pieces) that is assumed to exist even in "open" ground, no more than a couple difficult to hit troopers would be exposed at any given point in time.  At what point does it become worth it for a titan to use ammunition on them?

That's why a formation can make a single move into cover without triggering OW.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 14 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net