The first example - option 2 is the only playable solution of the 2 provided.

The second example - As has been stated before, only enemy units can be moved by a barge action. The Gorgon simply has to move around the friendly infantry to get into base contact with the Marines. The Gorgon cannot barge through friendly infantry as in the picture you have posted.

In the first example the friendly infantry are not being moved by the War Engine Barge but more by the need to stay in base contact with touched enemy infantry.

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i am totally unconvinced that you're allowed to barge enemy infantry away from combat in any instance, even if you then claim that the combat can simply "come with them"
for instance, you're not allowed to use the warengine barge to drag friendly models out of supporting fire range of another enemy formation

if barging cannot move friendly units, and barging cannot move enemy units out of combat with friendly units, then any barging that would do either of these things, is disallowed. there does not need to be a "one of these rules trumps the other" situation here. both rules can be observed by not barging the way you want to be able to.

also, in picture 1, you're not moving "directly towards" the closest enemy unit. you're moving diagonally towards the closest enemy unit.

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Assume that the WE hit the middle of the first stand and then dragged it along at a slight angle to get to the rest. I had to exaggerate all the gaps for clarity.





I don't think it's quite that simple when we aren't just talking about what can and cant be barged (only enemies can be barged) but what happens to the position of other models in the same assault when enemies are barged. What Ginger is suggesting as a solution would be a new rule:



That could open up a whole new set of issues any time a WE is in a larger formation or intermingled assaultSince barging would be extremely easy to prevent (by charging into infantry between the WE and the attackers). For contrasting views:

The wording in the FAQ is actually "only enemy units can be moved" (not barged). That makes it very simple. Barging cannot ever move friendly units.

I think that WE's should still be able to barge enemy units so at to maximise their abilities and keep the Epic Armageddon system working.
At no time should a WE be able to barge enemy units away from already contacted friendly units.

Barging has to thought about in a way that reflects realistic intentions (something I think Jervis was keen on and Neal has mentioned). Barging is 100% a reflection of a WE charging into enemy units to run them over and in every way, maximise casualties. To think that a WE would recklessly charge over friendly units is silly (even for the 40K universe). To recklessly charge into friendly and enemy units in a hand to hand fight is silly but the game system will fail if we disallow WE barging enemy units. The only way to keep the system working is to drag the contacted units along with the WE.

As I said before, the friendly infantry are not being barged in this case because that would be against the rules. They are being moved to maintain the CC fight they are already engaged in.

It really is that simple and that's how we'll be playing it tomorrow. A WE cannot ever directly move a friendly unit in a counter-charge. It MUST either go completely over or go around intervening friendly infantry. If the WE barges an enemy unit already in base contact with a friendly unit, both will be moved to fit in with the game mechanics.

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i dont think friendly units should be dragged along. enemy units should only be able to be barged so long as doing so does not move them out of engagement.

'dragging' friendly units will allow things like the war engine barging enemy models away from the fight, dragging them and the friendly folk in contact with them, out of the supporting fire range of the enemys other formation

friendly units are not allowed to be moved as the result of a barging action. ever.

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Either way, Gorgons cannot directly move (barge) friendly infantry to counter-charge through them. Let's focus on that because that's the key issue that seems to be the bone of contention.

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MattS, thanks again for some interesting pictures. As you might expect, I agree with Onyx here for both scenarios.

Regarding the use of the WE to 'drag' enemy out of contact in the 1st scenario, we are only considering a small part of the game. Once the Gorgon has moved, the remainder of the infantry can also countercharge so notionally they could move back into BtB - except that now those 4x Marines are in BtB with a DC3 WE, so cannot be contacted further! This aspect of your argument is the one that concerns me most as it has the potential to change the balance of the engagement too far IMHO.

The main question here has always been whether the Krieg player can get his Gorgon into BtB with the enemy, so that he can allocate hits on it first - and in both cases cited here, it is clear that he can by using 'normal' coutercharge movement.

The much more dubious question (IMHO) is whether the Gorgon can 'barge' through a mass of his own troops to get into contact rather than skirting around them. It is here I suggest that if the Krieg player has not positioned his own infantry in such a way as to be able to countercharge his Gorgons into BtB using normal movement (or due to the superior skills of his opponent) then he has to accept the consequences. Put another way, I believe the Krieg player is always able to position his infantry so that he can use his Gorgons without resorting to 'barging' his own infantry at all.

Putting that to one side, I still do not think the rules intend 'barging' friends out of the way, and still contend that it would cause many more problems - eg assaulting with a titan through friendly forces that are within 2cm of the enemy target (so the there is not enough space to place the titan). This would now be permitted under 'friendly barging' as you would simply move everything out of the way, infantry and tanks alike!

Worse, the defending units, who might reasonably have expected to counter-charge across the 2cm gap into BtB with some softer targets, now find themselves in BtB with the titan or forced to counter-charge it as the nearest enemy unit, which could significantly skew the combat results.

Here's the problem I have with trying to settle these oddball situations in terms of hard rules that are universally applicable - it all gets dorked up when you change the parameters, like WE speed, base size and so on.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Onyx's "you may never stop on a friendly infantry model is an absolute restriction" position is correct. That has consequences outside of assaults. It becomes impossible for a WE to move cautiously across a friendly trench line. They must take a full move and a normal difficult terrain check. Is that intended or desirable? I personally don't think so.

Picture an infantry screen in front of a Warlock titan (different formations and different WE speed). The enemy engages from 5cm in front of the infantry. The titan cannot countercharge to contact with the enemy because there is not enough space to allow the titan's base between the friendly infantry and the attackers. It's not poor placement or bad tactics to use an infantry screen. It's something that should be a reasonable tactic, but instead of being a reasonable thing to do it hinders the titan.

A smaller WE also becomes more maneuverable. After all, a 3cm wide model with 5cm charge chan fully clear 2cm, while a 5cm wide WE could not clear anything. There's an incentive to make proxy Gorgons (in this case) as small as possible because, unlike the relatively minor differences on the infantry bases, this is potentially huge.

And even if you do that, it doesn't quite work. For example...


Nothing in the rules indicates CC must be maintained except between the WE and the enemy units. By your own admission, you are just making this up because you think it's the only fair way to do it (and I agree it's more fair than the alternative).

Further, once the enemy are in contact with the WE, their "2 units in base contact" quota is filled. Moving friendly units back in contact with the enemy is just a made-up idea that arguably contradicts another "hard" and explicit rule.

And yet, what you propose seems reasonably fair under the circumstances, so you are arguing that some "new" rule should be implemented. But that puts us back into the "we're really just making it up as we go" realm.
==

Edit: Sorry. Grammatically terrible. I'm short on time today, so bear with me.

I agree, I was listing options but I don't endorse this 'Option 1: The friendly infantry's position cannot be changed by a barge move, so they are ripped out of base contact with the enemy who are now in contact with the war engine.'



The way I've played it has been 'Option 2: The friendly infantry's position can be changed by a barge move, so they are dragged along with the enemy who are now also in contact with the war engine.'



(BTW the proxy gorgons in these photos have bases exactly the same size as the standard metal gorgon)

That was what lead to me saying that if we accept that the friendly infantry can be dragged along with the enemy rather than lose base contact, then it may be possible for the WE's barge move to adjust their position enough to give it space to finish its move.




Adding to what Neal said above, if we were to agree that 'friendly infantry's positions cannot be change by a WE barge', then since the rules explicitly allow WEs to barge and explicitly allow them to drag along 2 enemy units per DC, then the only conclusion that could be reached without actually adding new rules would be that War Engines can rip friendly infantry out of base contact with enemies.

Whatever your opinion on friendly infantry being moved slightly by a barge, trust me that this would be a lot more powerful than allowing the infantry to move slightly to remain in contact.

which is still more powerful than not allowing either to move, an option which you seem unwilling to consider.
ie: enemies can be moved so long as doing so does not violate the barging rule, or break previously established combats. friendly infantry can never be moved ever. this makes countercharge barging to be not very useful at all, as should be the case. barging is an event that should be caused and benefited by the initiator of the assault, not the respondee. but it does stop bogus movement shenanigans and surfing infantry, which in my mind, is a much bigger balance concern than the fact that gorgon assaults wouldnt be as good as how you've been playing them lately (which, i recall, is considered by most to be 'too good' for a given value of 'too good')

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I must say, JTG's idea seems pretty sensible.

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I guess, if it means we don't have to create any new rules (which wasn't my intention), it makes the most sense to me aswell.
It certainly is the easiest option to play.

If friendly infantry can never be moved at all (as per the FAQ) it means barging can still happen but is limited.

I can live with that and it's certainly preferable to how we were playing WE barging in recent weeks (friendly barging is just broken).

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Of course, if CC'd friendly infantry can lock down a WE (in an odd mirror image to the way transported infantry gets locked into its transports) this significantly diminishes the value of combined arms deployments of infantry with the War Engines, which doesn't make much sense...

Physically, if a WE can barge enemy infantry, why not friendly? And do you seriously think, doctrinally, that WE would be prohibited from engaging an enemy because friendly squishies happen to be in the way?

I'm having a hard time recalling any factions who would think twice about squashing some poor friendly grunts underfoot to enable a WE to use its weaponry most effectively. Even IG and SMs are not noted for humanitarianism... let alone Orks!

Perhaps the question should be what happens to friendly units that get barged.. but this would add a further epicycle to the already baroque engagement rules.

I disagree, honestly.

War Engines (with some exceptions) shouldn't be there to provide CC muscle. They should be there to provide fire support. Their CC is mostly for engaging other War Engines.

The most effective thing a hundred foot behemoth with guns on it can do for nearby infantry is fire those guns. Not run over and try to stomp on the particular group of gnats that is causing problems.

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I could live with it, too, if this were just for assaults and just with infantry/WE transport formations. It's neither. This interpretation of 1.7 has consequences beyond "friendly barging." It applies outside of assault. It applies to Orks in forts, SHT companies with Fire Support platoons, Cultists in a Plague Tower, the classic Revenants in a box of Guardians and so on.

Still not sure how to resolve it...