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Lightning Fighter Stats

 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:48 am 
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A S8 shot is usually AT6+, but given they're anti-rockets and most likely hitting the tank on its top armor I think a bump to 5+ isn't too crazy. Given they're armed with 6 of them I'd be for either 2x AT5+ or 1x AT4+ to "twin" it. 2x AT4+ seems like overkill considering the patterns for translation from 40k to EA and its payload of 6 rockets. Once more, the GW Tbolts are armed with 6 too and they have only a single AT4+ shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:57 am 
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So Dave, shouldn't the LB Autocannon have AA6+ given the Hydra's 5+ has Twin Autocannons which adds a pip??? That way I think it's points could stay roughly similar. 2xAA5+ at 30cm (one at 45cm) = 2x 4+ Intercept from the Lightning? I still feel the +1 Intercept rule should be dropped personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:43 am 
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Signal wrote:
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Now, should our Lightning Strike, with a smaller (55% smaller) AA envelope but slightly better overall AT, cost fifty points more?

Wait, are we now talking about making them only a single underwing rocket? Shouldn't they be 2 x AT4+ ?


Yeah, that's a typo.

The stats on the missiles are somewhat fixed due to the fact the T-Bolt and Marauder Destroyer already have the same missiles at that statline. Also, putting two BCs on an aircraft is insane, unless you're making a Spooky.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:53 am 
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Quote:
Also, putting two BCs on an aircraft is insane

No one's talking about putting two "Battle Cannons" on an aircraft, though. Hell, the Lightning already has two Lascannons on it, which are each more powerful than an individual Hellstrike missile, much less a Battlecannon shot. Additionally, the Strike variant of the Lightning has the ability to carry from between 2-6 missiles, while the Thunderbolt carries 0-4. While the Thunderbolt was given optional equipment (one of the very few examples where non-standard equipment is included on an Epic statline) it's somewhat unreasonable to assume that it is automatically carrying the maximum possible capability, to the point that it equals an aircraft whose entire purpose for existing is to carry those missiles, "in a dedicated ground attack role, with the primary mission of targeting enemy armor." Compare this to the Thunderbolt, whose "main role is as an air-superiority fighter." While it's lauded as versatile, it's still a generalist craft. The Lightning Strike variant should be a significant threat to armored formations, otherwise they are pointless.

But seriously, why do people keep going back to the current 40k rules as being a perfect golden interpretation of weapons systems? Quoting the "Strength" of a 40k weapon has little to do with its theoretical effect. 40k has an internal balance that sometimes has little to do with the Warhammer universe as a whole. This is especially relevant as 40k has streamlined itself significantly as editions go forward. Blindly copying the numbers from the latest codex, such as "A S8 shot is usually AT6+" (sorry for picking on you Dave, but you're the most recent ;) ) is wildly inaccurate when looking at Epic incarnations. Sure, missile launchers might be AT6+, but Autocannons (S7) are also at AT6+. Battlecannons, a S8 weapon, are at AT4+, which is better than a Lascannon at S9. This is because the internal balance of Warhammer 40k is based on an entirely different game system, one in which Armor Values grant certain vehicles outright immunity to lower-powered weapons. Epic doesn't have that constraint, and thus has an entirely different system of balancing weapon statistics.

Our purpose here is to facilitate play within the Warhammer 40k Universe, not to simply transfer 40k stats into Epic stats. Adherence should be to the game first, the fluff descriptions second, and stats from another game a long-distant third. Doing otherwise is like using poor quality translation software to interpret a Chinese novel, via 16 other languages.


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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:02 am 
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Signal wrote:
Our purpose here is to facilitate play within the Warhammer 40k Universe, not to simply transfer 40k stats into Epic stats. Adherence should be to the game first, the fluff descriptions second, and stats from another game a long-distant third. Doing otherwise is like using poor quality translation software to interpret a Chinese novel, via 16 other languages.


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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:39 am 
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@Signal: I developed a system where almost all of this numbers makes sence. There i have listed reasons WHY a Battle Cannon hast AT4+ but a Lascannon only AT5+.
Hellstrikes Missiles ARE as effective as a Battle Cannon against Armorued targets (both are S8 and are Ordnance). So AT4+ for a Hellstrike Missile fits.
If you go by fluff a Hellstrike Missilile (actually every AT-weapon) would knock out a tank with every hit. Because that is the way the Black Library novels are wirtten. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:19 am 
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Signal wrote:
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Also, putting two BCs on an aircraft is insane

No one's talking about putting two "Battle Cannons" on an aircraft, though.


AoC was asking about why there was no AP, if hellstrikes were BC equivalants.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Dave wrote:
A S8 shot is usually AT6+, but given they're anti-rockets and most likely hitting the tank on its top armor I think a bump to 5+ isn't too crazy. Given they're armed with 6 of them I'd be for either 2x AT5+ or 1x AT4+ to "twin" it. 2x AT4+ seems like overkill considering the patterns for translation from 40k to EA and its payload of 6 rockets. Once more, the GW Tbolts are armed with 6 too and they have only a single AT4+ shot.

You're wrong about that Dave - a Thunderbolt carries a maximum of 4, not 6. I just double checked the 1st FW IA book to make sure. Therefore, since 4 gives 1 x 4+ shot I'd be inclined to suggest maybe making it a AT3+ shot. I agree that 2 x AT4+ would be ioverkill and inappropriate. Call it Underwing Missiles rather than Underwing Rockets to allow it to have different stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Signal wrote:
Quote:
Also, putting two BCs on an aircraft is insane

No one's talking about putting two "Battle Cannons" on an aircraft, though.


AoC was asking about why there was no AP, if hellstrikes were BC equivalants.

Because the same weapons are on the Thunderbolt and the Thunderbolt stats doesn't have AP on it's ones. Unless we plan to re-write the rules for them too (and I don't think we should) then they should stay the same. They have only more recently been upgraded to be a battlecannon equivalent in W40k anyway - the original background/rules has them as AT only, basically unlimited range Krak Missiles.


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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Signal wrote:
Proper answer: Because they aren't "a battlecannon shot," they're an antitank missile shot.
40k derivative answer: because they are Strength 8, but not large blast.


The latest (Apocalypse) rules for them are actually large blast, identical to battle cannons.

Regardless, Thunderbolts are armed with the same missiles, so we already have a stat for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:07 pm 
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I disagree zombo.
Imperial Armour Apocalypse II has Hellstrike Missiles as 72" S8 AP3 Ordnance1 weapons.
HellFURY Missiles have the large blast template (and S4 AP5 Heavy1 and ignore cover).

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Does Ordinance not give large blast? My mistake then.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Not necessarily.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Ordinance is an upgrade to armour penetration, not a template attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Lightning Fighter Stats
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Ordnanced used to mean large blast AND 2D6 armour pen, but I guess that got changed in 4th or 5th.


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