Seriously?

An on-table fm that marshalls is something your opponent can do something about, yes.  How is that not fair?  It also means that the marshalling fm may also be subject to the -1 for regrouping in the end phase should they take any further blast markers.

Why is this a bad thing?  Maybe it's just a benefit for the Necrons (they have been heavily "nerfed" lately), the Necrons are the only army that directly benefits from "off board activations", so, if they paid for that ability in point costs, would that be okay?

No other army benefits, other than the "stall", from performing off-board activations; not moving on with an action has the same effect of deciding not to bring them on *without* an activation.



Because there's more of a cost to the Necron player doing this than just points; depending on the formation, they may be leaving 10% or more of their army off-board for a turn, allowing the enemy much greater freedom to defend against the Necron return.  Certainly the Necron player *may* be restoring units to the formation, but that would tend to mean that they've already suffered losses.  

Another cost is turn-by-turn portal use, they're a finite resource: using portals to enter the battlefield and then leave it again when broken uses two portals, that's going to quickly add up.

I don't see this a pure advantage for the Necron player, it requires tactical thought and the enemy can respond to it, that's why I don't see it as a problem.

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Could you elaborate here -  AFAIK the only deductions are for being within 30cm of enemy; and for being Broken. Were you refering to these?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

How so?

I presume a fm that has failed it's activation in the previous turn and then marshalled and not moved out onto the board?  This seems highly suspect and pretty gamey to me.  Whilst not explicitly ruled against it does seem pretty clear from the wording of the webway rules that the intent is for a fm to enter play by moving onto the board.

The thing is, if the Necron formation has gone off-board to perform an activation, it means, essentially, that the enemy has *sent* them there; there's no reason to do this unless the Necron player has suffered damage already.

A Necron player can already pull formations out of harm's way using portals; if they're un/lightly damaged, they'll come back the next turn and start wrecking things.  How is a damaged formation having to sit out a full turn to pull this off seen as a more "dangerous" ability?  They're paying a turn to do this.

So, what about Marine formations with Blast markers that are picked up and removed from the table via Thunderhawk?  Do they rally in the End Phase?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I refer you to section 1.14.

When attempting to rally in the end phase, fms suffer a -1 modifier if there are enemies within 30 cm.

I agree that marshalling and not coming on the board could turn into a problem.  The more I thought about this the other day, the more I realized the Eldar are the key to establishing what the rule should be in regard to stalling.

When I play Eldar, if I have a formation in the Webway that I do not intend to bring on board (or I can't bring on board), I simply state I am out of activations and I am done. There is no stalling involved and that seems to me to be the most reasonable way to do it.

However stalling and regrouping are distinct issues (see my last post).

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How is it "gamey"?

A formation in the Webway tries an Engage order against an enemy holding the Wraithgate... they fail and take a Blast marker... now, they can choose to Move or Shoot or Regroup.  The may not enter an enemy zone of control, therefore, they may not choose "Move".  They are off-board and have no line of sight to enemy units, therefore, they may not choose "Shoot".  Therefore, they must choose "Regroup" and remove their Blast marker.

That's how things currently work.

What is "suspect" about this?  What is the nefarious plan that a player would have to want this to occur?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

While I agree with you, that isn't "how things currently work" .  That is how some of us play and others don't.  Thus the discussion.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

My current take on it would be...
===

1) A reserve formation may choose whether or not to activate.

2) A reserve formation may rally in the end phase as normal.

3) A reserve formation which chooses to activate must attempt to move onto the board.  Much like a formation obligated to move out of an enemy ZoC or into formation coherency, it must attempt an action which will allow it to enter play.

4) A reserve formation which fails to activate takes a BM as normal for a failed activation.  It has the normal Hold options - move, shoot or regroup.  If moving onto the board is restricted (e.g. ZoC blocking the gate) that option is not available.  Shooting is not available off-board.  Regrouping could be used to remove the BM.

===

#1 - It's been well-established that Eldar formations in the Webway get to choose when they come out, and are not forced to move onto the board immediately, so this is the same as the standing rule which has, so far, not caused any problems.

#2 - This is the same as the current rules for formations that are prevented from activating on their own - a formation loaded on an aircraft off-board, a formation loaded in a WE.  Like #1, it's worked fine so far so it shouldn't be changed unless some issue is exposed.

#3 - Mandatory entering of play upon activation prevents "burning" activations offboard as well as bypassing all the potential issues specific to regenerating Necrons.

#4 - This gives the player a small choice if the formation fails.

I'm fairly certain #4 is also the closest thing to a consensus from the last time the Eldar gates had this discussion.  The main point in that conversation (iirc) was concern over the availability of gates if a formation failed to activate, i.e. did that use the gate's capacity.  The conclusion was that the failed activation did not use up the gate's capacity which obviously means the formation is not forced to come through the gate.


The issue with #4 is with Necrons choosing to Regroup, which will allow them to Regenerate off-board if they fail.  I could see a Necron player with a badly bloodied formation off-board choosing to Retain with that formation in the hopes of failing to activate and Regrouping off-board (-1 for BMs, -1 for Retain).  That could theoretically have some tactical advantage over a Marshall/Move with the formation Regrouping on the board.

How often would a Necron formation be in a situation where it was really advantageous to fail an off-board activation?  Is that a big enough problem that we need to disallow it and change the rules just for the Necrons?

After all, a failed on-board activation has a similar reduced downside for the Necrons compared to the failed activations of other armies.  Barring some very specific tactical needs, that Regroup/regenerate is just better than the normal choices.  In that respect, a superior failed activation result while off-board isn't exactly bizarre.

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Neal

It's not the regroup that's gamey, its electing to marshal, moving 0cm and removing the blastmarker that I think people are pointing too.

Yet again the pointy eared Eldar are the ones spoiling the party  

Neal, in reference to your statement above, can you respond to this portion of my post please?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Above, Mosc.  I was editing when you posted.

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Neal

So given what Neal's said, a formation would only be able to regroup off-board in two situations:

1) It marshals on-board, moves into a portal staying in the reserves, and then regroups.

2) A formation in the reserves fails its activation and all portals on the board have either been used for the current turn or are in enemy ZoC.

Correct?

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Dave

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When I initially read Neal's post I misunderstood (speed reading - not good to do on this thread).  Now that I went over it slowly I am 100% agreement with everything Neal posted.

So Dave, you have it right.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.