Again, that only works at 3000pts.
At 2000pts, it won't matter at all, whilst at 5000pts it'll be downright annoying.

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I'm not sure I understand your point (or you understand mine).

Black Legion spoke about how Warhounds only operate in pairs. That a single Warhound is a "battle remain". Suggesting that in situations where there are multiple Warhounds, they'd form back up into pairs.

So, at 2000pts, you could take a single warhound, or a pair. At 5000pts, you could take a single warhound, a pair of warhounds, a single and a pair, two pair, a single and two pair, or three pair. But not 6 singles.

Instead of putting some arbitrary wording in there "Multiple warhounds must be formed up into pairs" etc, putting a 0-1 restriction on the single Warhound does that automatically. I may have skipped a step in my initial explanation. I tend to do that, or I come across as too rambling and that can lead to incoherancy due to overstatement.

Like now.

Morgan Vening

Hmmm, I see what you're getting at now.

Not sure as I'd agree with following through on it, mind you, but I agree it achieves its aim nicely.

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0-1 on the single Warhound does achieve it's aim nicely. It is however a bit of a fudge as you could claim remnant formations in every army for every formation if you were so inclined. I also assume it would also retain the current 275pt value on the single, just restrict further Warhounds to pairs. Then would you roll it out to other scout class titans like Revenants (Allow single remnant Revenants) or Hierophants (0-1 on single Hierophants and a reduced cost pair).

Agreed on that. It's not necessarily a solution to the problem. But I agree with Ginger that Warhounds currently aren't being selected as pairs. And given that's how they're "supposed" to fight, it seems a little off.

Personally, I'd rather see the costings tinkered with, so that the choice of taking a pair, or two singles, is actually a real decision, but I don't see that happening either.

Arkturas, you do have a point, kind of. I'd have no problem with the Warhounds only being purchasable as a pair (like Revenants). But they currently have the single option, and I can't see that being removed. I wouldn't want to see the Revenants split for exactly the same reason. Unless they cost 375+ each*, you would see exactly the same thing happening there. Not sure I have heard of Heirophants operating in packs.

* For 3000pt games, you could still take two separate Revenants and a Nightwing Squadron.

Morgan Vening

Well you could enforce the pairs by making the army list entry something like:

A formation with Two Warhound Titans - 500pts
Two formations composed of one Warhound Titan in each- 550pts

In fact, I might actually do something like that with the AMTL list...

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Nice one.
Assumes that the two Warhounds in a Warhound Battlegroup (which is always two Warhounds) will either support each other (one formation) or that each will hunt alone (but still in proximity of each other = on the same gaming table).


BTW: "remnant" was the word i was looking for, not "remain"

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The problem is that two Warhounds are just about as powerfull as a Reaver, but are faster, provide an extra activation and the ability to fire on different targets - and for 100 points less. Arguably they should therefore cost something like 300-350 each (though this will never happen LoL).

On the wording, Morgan's suggestion works for me, so we would have two formations something like
0-1 Warhound singlton (campaign survivor) 275
Warhound pair (scout formation) 500

They're a lot weaker than a reaver Ginger, 5+ reinforced save is a big drop down.

I do agree that for Marines at least they're worth 300pts as individuals.

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Why? Nothing has changed. The stats are the same. It seems to me that the Marines are the problem in this case, not the Warhounds. I'm not getting the reasoning behind this.

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berzerkmonkey, the contention that the singleton Warhound is overpowered for a 275 point cost when compared with other formations of equivalent cost. Individually they are fearless, have better survivability than Predators (because of the shields) and have comparable though markedly different firepower capability. Depending on circumstances, they perform as well or better than a Tactical squad, and are arguably equivalent to a terminator squad (better speed and shooting, worse armour). Hence the suggestion of a cost ~300 points

The real issue is spamming singleton warhounds because the reduced cost allows the purchase of other upgrades for Marines, together with the potential power of combining their activitiy, and the activation advantage etc.

Zombo -I agree that the armour is less powerfull, but they are faster, have the equivalent combined DC and shields, and the warhounds kick out more shots but at a closer range. So there is at least a passing comparison that would also justify increasing the individual cost to 300, though perhaps not increasing the pair to 550.

The stats are, but not the strategy ratings. There's some potentially dangerous combos (like double, fire all PBGs and then engage) that you really can't attempt with guard due to their low strategy.

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Its probably worth noting that IF warhound costs were to be significantly changed then it should be done as part of greater re-evaluation of WE costs.

Warhounds might be the most obvious candidate but I think there are others that bear looking at.

OR

What if Warhounds (and all other DC3 or less WE) had the critical hit changed to "blow up"?

I've always thought the Warhound (and all other WE's of a similar size ie Feral etc.) should also take an extra hit on a critical , saving rolls allowed, as well as stagger.
Then there's always a chance it could be destroyed if opponent gets really lucky.