Heh. That's really funny. Oh well. I figured there would have been something. After all, it's theoretically possible for any unit to be in a position where it can't escape.

I'm really surprised to find it's not in the core rules as is. Mebee that should be fixed first, then ruled for this? Because with the several 0cm movement formations in the game (including an official list), the consequences should be established. What's a Gotterdammerung Emplacement battery do if Scouts are within 10cm?

Morgan Vening

They must try and engage the scouts as per the rules (So gonna give this a go with some warp spiders ).  

In the case of portals I would say, that by the logical following of the rules, if a unit trys to engage a unit from a portal (As the portal is within their (The enemy's ZOC) and fail the activation roll then they must remain offboard.  I guess in this rare occurance it would be ok to allow the regroup part of the hold action, as an exception rather than the general rule.  Where possible a unit offboard that makes an activation roll SHOULD enter play through movement, unless it is complately impossible due to the actions of the enemy.

I don't think that units energing from portals should be declared at the start of the turn either.  That's going too far and uneccessary if everyone is sensible and fair about the application and implications of the current rules.

And if they fail their activation?

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I can easily see and agree with the opinion that formations that can't or don't want to move onto the board just don't activate.  They don't need a 0cm move or a marshall or to go on overwatch in the webway or in their tomb.  They just don't go.  The Eldar can't be expected to move every formation out because it is just not a viable idea tactically.  If you have two Storm Serpents and the Eldar have three formations off board, you can't expect three formations to move out of the available portals.  It is silly and I think any reasonable person can see this if they actually play Epic.  I don't think this is in debate at this point so, moving on...

Teleporters can't be denied the ability to teleport unless they are broken, so everything from Monoliths to Terminators are in the clear.  Moving on...

The last point is what needs to be hammered out.  There is an existing rule in place from the core rules that says a formation that fails its activation may HOLD which consists of three separate parts.

Shoot: I believe you need to have a valid target so this is out.

Move: I don't think anybody would fight that a formation off board could simply move out of the portal and onto the board.  If we are consistent with the decision above that it is a player's choice to move onto the board or not, that choice should still extend to the player here.  To move, or not to move- that is the question.  It is wrong to force (take an Eldar Guardian formation with no armor) the player to move his forces out into certain doom and is not in the spirit of Epic. So if a player cannot move, cannot shoot, he is left with...

Regroup: this is all that's left.  Regrouping is simply a formation that is reorganizing itself -forming up- so that they are ready to fight better after coming under fire (or failing to activate - equipment failure! ).  If you can't do this off board, where can you do this?

It is consistent logically, realistically, and mechanically.

If it unduly improves the Necrons then the Necrons must change, not the rule.  Since we're in the middle of modifying the rules right now anyway, we can simply bump the price on the Necron Warrior formations by (just throwing this out) 25 points and be done with it.  Maybe the Destroyers too.  It doesn't affect the Monoliths, Obelisks, or Pylons.

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They do nothing.  They attempt to move out of the scout's ZOC and fail.  Or if they have taken sufficient blast markers to break them, then they are destroyed.

How do 0cm units move out of that ZoC?     That question was about Gotterdammerungs, and was a bit of a thread-jack.

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On using 'stalling' activations whether off-table or not, this still means that you are giving the on-table initiative over to opponents to improve their position, set-up OW, put the 'gates under ZoC or even destroy them etc; so it really is not as clear an advantage as some are presenting. The mechanic is simple: the off-table formation declares a "Marshall" and then rallies off-table. IMHO 'stalling' really only comes into it's own where there is a significant disparity in activations (usually a "pop-corn" army) which also presents it's own set of problems, not least of which is the relative power of the small formations).

As others say, the main issue under discussion really only affects Necrons who can exit the table and re-build damaged formations. But they still have to get back onto the table, and I believe their gates can only be used once per turn so they act as a natural throttle to this sort of activity; the Necrons risk the destruction of their remaining on-table formations while the other half of the army is recuperating.

The debate on how an enemy ZoC can influence gates has been discussed at length in Eldar threads and is clear; if the off-table formation wants to enter via a gate in enemy ZoC, it must use an engage activation to assault the enemy formation (usually scouts who are potentially supported by rather more robust formations). The tactic of placing these supports between the scouts and the gate is also handled in the 2008 amendments and FAQ.

The only part that is less clear is how to handle enemy occupying a wraithgate or Tomb complex; whether to ban it or permit it (and how to handle this situation).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

if it has 0cm move, and is broken while still in an enemy ZoC, it gets destroyed under 1.13.3  

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What "dangerous precedent" is it thought to be  being set here?  You *can't* have a "0cm" move with sustained fire, 1) sustained fire doesn't included a move, 2) to use a portal, you *must* take an action with a move component, so that's a non-starter.  

If it's a concern about "stalling", a player can already "stall" with cheap, off-board aircraft formations, so that's nothing new.  

What's dangerous about rallying off board?  Don't Marine formations that have been scooped up by Thunderhawks rally like normal in the End Phase, even though they're off board?  I've always played it that they rally, essentially automatically unless they're broken.

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This is all mainly a Necron issue, as, currently, they're the only army that can go *back* into reserve/portals with ease *AND* have an ability that allows them to bring back lost units; it's that combination, in my mind, that is causing this issue.

But, I don't see this as an issue at all... I see it as a Necron benefit; it's plausible flavour-wise and the Necron player still has to pay a "cost": a, usually, significant, formation, will do *nothing* on the battlefield for a turn.

What are the dangers?

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We're not discussing teleporter formations, it's already agreed, if not explicitly stated, that they are not a valid activation to stall with, and, other than the effect of a "stall", no action benefits them in any way when they're off-board.

Formations using portals are exactly like aircraft in the regard that they *could* affect the battlefiled if they choose to, it's just that they may choose not to.

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While you are right that a/c formations are limited in numbers, 'stalling' is more usually performed thoughout the game by cheap, inaccessible formations that are on-table, so there really is no difference from the current position.

snap Chroma

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

The precedent that offboard fms can perform actions whilst offboard and remain there, Chroma.

If a fm is activating then it has to be on the board or in an effort to bring it onto the board.  In this case, why can the necron player not marshall his troops and use the move part to bring the troops onto the board and THEN regenerate/remove blast markers.  You get the advantages but they are also vulnerable to enemy fire so some thought must be put into the action.

I am not so sure it is a precedent - Eldar have always been able to declare a 'Marshall' action and not use it to bring the formation on table.

And how is using a Marshall to move on-table any different to an on-table formation that marshalls and regenerates / removes BMs? Being on-table presumably means they can be shot / assaulted again to reduce numbers and put the BMs back (or have I missed something?)

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