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Official errata posted

 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Much as everyone has been asking for this, it has also thrown a spanner in the works.

On the plus side, new epic players will now be able to see straight away that there are changes to the rules, and can start playing with some of the most important changes straight away. Also, tournaments running under official rules can now include some of the proposed rules changes, which is a good thing.

On the other hand, in many ways this doesn't go as far as many people would want, especially on the army list side of things. Personally I'm quite happy with the state of the core rules after these changes, and would happily play them without modifications, but the army list changes were minimal at best.

The eldar list will remain overpowered even losing pulse and spirit stones. Random commisars for IG is still daft, and space marine tanks are still overpriced.

So for me, I think it's going to be a case of official rules, unofficial lists from now on.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:46 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 21 2008,10:45)
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Even something as dumb as the stuff E&C keeps putting out is better than GW "support"


Oi! :(

Sorry, that came off sounding far too negative. I'll try again: What E&C does, for example, is far better than what GW does.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:54 pm 
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From scanning through the errata it looks pretty sensible to me - it has changed what is necessary to change without the huge overhaul that some wanted.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:22 pm 
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(Ginger @ Mar. 20 2008,20:38)
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(Moscovian @ Mar. 20 2008,21:28)
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Now everyone is forced to decide - do I stick with the OFFICIAL changes or do I go with something a little more progressive (possibly changes made by NetEA)? ?There is no more sitting on the fence for anyone.
Well I for one don't think we are quite there yet. However, I would agree with you if ever GW / SG or their representatives refused to endorse a list of proposed changes that is widely accepted by the community as a whole. As things stand right now, JJ and Andy have reviewed the rules accepted the vast majority, and seem prepared to publish these changes. (The army lists are a different matter). Providing they can be pursuaded to review and publish changes to the various army lists, I still believe that this would be the best route.

Whatever you are taking I am sure is illegal, Ginger.

This is Jervis's parting gift to the community whether people like it or not.  Likewise, people have to decide for themselves if it goes far enough or if they need something more out of the game.

Personally I see it assomething that works okay.  For the published lists the games will play close to balanced and the rules will be similar enough to make learning the revisions easy for new players.

The problem comes in with development of new lists and the fine tuning of the existing army lists.  Because JJ didn't accept the bulk of the core army changes, you are going to have the hardcore gamers split between what is most widely accepted and what is official.  Since it is this group of hardcore gamers that really drives Epic play (runs local tournaments, regularly plays Epic around 40K players and gets them interested, discusses it for fun on the forum, etc) you will most definitely see a clear division in the community.

Right now, I feel that it is imperative that we do all we can to gather as much of the community together to support the development of agreed work which can be presented as such for publication.


I'm not sure what political office you're running for here  :p  but to translate for everyone else: "Let's talk and see what we can do."  But we are talking and have been talking.  JJ made a decision and will most definitely not be discussing it (not unless something radical happens like SG splitting off or other similar fairy tales).

I'm not saying this is a bad thing so don't think I'm being a doomsayer.  I'm merely pointing out THIS IS IT.  If you are expecting more officially, see Ginger for the drugs. :D

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:49 pm 
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Was the errata a complete subset of the changes that went into the handbook?  Just curious if there's any additional changes that should make their way into the Handbook 2009.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:49 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Mar. 21 2008,12:54)
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From scanning through the errata it looks pretty sensible to me - it has changed what is necessary to change without the huge overhaul that some wanted.

I agree that it's not a terrible move, but the IG and Marine mods especially fall far short of those required to bring balance... and the 100% lack of mods to the Siegemasters mean that that list will remain the singlemost overpowered army list in all of Epicdom. :(

Heck, even Hena thinks that the list mods didn't go far enough... and he's probably the most conservative regular voice on this board...

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:03 pm 
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Hello, I do not know if this is the right place to post this, but as I recently revealed the existence of the F-ERC on the SG, the following changes made by our Francophone community. I would translations of the first pages on our opening documents (I warn you there will be the reading, although there is a lot of common modifications to TC) :

Space Marines :
Foreword:
Since its release in the Book of Rule Epic Armageddon, the space marine list has always been regarded as more lowest than others. The statistics of games played set on the official website of specialist games gave a win rate of nearly 33%, largely under all other armies.

Several key issues were raised:
- The inefficiency of a list focused on the ground against a list abusing means airborne and orbital.
- A list of the rigidity associated with relatively small-cost, drastically limit the impact on shooting and assault in the list, while reducing tactical blankets on the ground.
- The absence of armoured squads.
- The difficulty of obtaining air cover ground viable and playable.
- Sized units evil or ineffective that made little or no playable.

Overall an army wanting to be effective in summarizing thunderhawk filled with troops, a cruiser which launched an assault orbital, termis teleported few whirlwind, and speeders ...
It was too bad to limit how to play SM. They give more flexibility in the choice of their troops by making them more balanced should raise the overall level of the list, and make them more fun to play.
The intrinsic problems are important, it was necessary to reassess many point.

The special rules:
1) Ignore the first sub-malus number:
This amendment is a substantive reform, which affects the entire marine units, which, even if it is useful that assault, took great importance in a list-oriented attack as is the list navy. The special detachments of Marine and their small size, they are extremely aware of being underground numbers, training from 4 to 6 or 7 units, very common, are almost invariably. Starting with such a penalty was therefore difficult, especially for units not  more adapted assault than many others. In the need to increase the potential of the list it would therefore seem appropriate. In the background it is also consistent rather, by their doctrine of fighting, the marines are likely to fight in sub-number, their incomparable training may therefore reflect this.
It also follows the logic, a moral level marine account for two (at the BM, loss of assault), introduced by their rules and they do not know fear.
It is therefore significantly boost units stormed, without touching the specificity of small rigid detachments.

2) The space marines leaders withdraw two BM instead of one:
The importance of marine space characters is a fact, small formations require such illustrious warriors, their skills, Commander, or charismatic (or typing of psyker), are crucial in the armed marines, in specialization, or synergistic units. But their cost of 50pts is well above the standards of other armies for a similar effect. Rather than reducing the cost and see flourish even more than before, it seemed more appropriate to slightly increase their effectiveness in a general aspect, apart from the onslaught.
It confirms the logic on the previous BM with the leaders, this boost is lightweight and will not help too often, it is enough for BM whatever useful [at least 4 BM for it to be significant compared with before], but not too or be demoralized ... Needless to say that PI 4, in general there are already seen losses and the size of detachments demoralization is often close. The use is therefore timely, but more logical, and remains a pleasant little boost for expensive marine characters .

The Army List:
1) The Heavy Support option :
It was obvious that the distribution of options to vehicles detachments Infantry was unconsistent. It seemed somewhat logical that the vindicator be excluded devastators of options, and the land raider among tactics, and the inability to take a pr?dator was understandable.
We appeared clearer and more easily to create a unique option guarantees the possibility of taking 2 armoured support of any kind in erasing the above improvements.
Tactics and devastators can now be freely supported by pr?dators, vindicators and land raiders. In reviewing the stats of pr?dators and vindicators also on the wider use of armoured vehicles.
The Terminators are able to choose 4-Land raiders, only possibility to carry themselves.

2) lower price SM armoured:
Despite revising their profiles (see below), to make it more playable and most played squads tanks, a small discount on the purchase of the training was given. Instead of paying full price for 4 tanks, he gets 25pts on the whole. Again it is marginal, but it facilitates their integration into a list, and therefore promotes their appearance, without this imbalance overall.
The Pr?dators and vindicators are 25pts cheaper.
The Land raiders are 50pts cheaper, big bonus is there to really promote their purchase, the armoured carrier striker mostly its transport capacity, which is paid for but unused, the land-raider was considered unaffordable.
At 350pts, 4 land-raiders are more likely to take the comparison with other armoured formations, sea or not.

3) Increases in the price 50pts of the barge landing:
Regarded as a bit too efficient or cheap, are increased cost is justified. Even if the additional cost is negligible it restricts the possibilities of slightly off-airborne, and can compensate for some other price changes.

4) Amendment of the sniper option :
The previous option did acquire jurisdiction sniper by a single foundation for the extra 25pts, deemed too expensive and unnecessary. Here, the option for 50pts makes all scout snipers, either in absolute cost twice as a cheaper, but also the fact that all the scouts either pay much more violent assault, and allows them to provide more effective support. It also represents an opportunity to 40K to play solely as scouts sniper, the most widespread.

5) Changing the option Hunter:
The hunter is the SM flak, but on 75pts, it was very expensive, its firepower is less for the hydra of GI, and despite a greater extent, the difference in cost was really damaging, and it seemed logical to pay 2 thunderbolts to hunt enemies planes than invest in the marine flak very costly, and not necessarily very protected.
At 50pts, hunter bought more easily, it's firepower is still average, but is offset by his superior reach. The hunter despite its lower cost remains restricted to infantry detachments and whirlwind, which limits the number of pieces in its availability in the army and values infantry detachments.

Upgrades:
1) Dreadnouhts:
In order to promote the comprehensive use of the ability of transporting Thunderhawk by a Tactical  or strengthen the impact of a possible D?vastators garrison, it was adopted the following amendment:
The upgrade can now more or not the purchase of 2 Dreadnoughts, replacing free Rhinos to a Tactical squad or D?vastator by a Dreadnought. On the other hand if this upgrade is used in this sense, it is impossible to board pods since the latter can also be used for free by replacing the Rhinos.

The profiles:
1) The Land Raider:
The value of FF from 5 + to 4 +, for the simple reason that its weaponry is very impressive, especially with the 2 heavy bolters  via its twin linked heavy bolter, much more effectively than the heavy bolter any single chassis artillery chimera of a FF5 +, in addition to its 4 lascanons. Heavy weapons and 2 with a heavy bolters FF4 +, this corresponds to the Leman Russ ...
In terms of game play it a bit better, and makes it more efficient in support of assaults, which is not bad at all.

3) The Land speeders Tornados:
The value of FF from 5 + to 4 +, for the simple reason that its weaponry is very impressive, especially with 1 heavy bolter and 1 assault gun. Needless to say weapons are most effective against infantry which may exist in the universe 40k. As the capacity of the assault gun  can perforate any shielding. This also strengthens the rationale for its extra compared to a speeder Land Base.

4) The assault bike :
By increasing its speed and changing its status mounted infantry, it is simply a motorcycle again, what it is. Though far from the buggies and other vypers, which are vehicles 40K (unlike the motorcycle assault), stormed the motorcycle is similar to a base, so commonplace, 2 motorcycles, and thus their profile, their resistance , their sensitivity to arms, etc ... The speed difference was not really justified either, especially at this scale, the upgrade seems normal.
In terms of game play stormed the bike becomes immediately more playable, it is much less vulnerable (a returning Infantry), does not cool detachment. Thus, it can replace some motorcycles, or become part of a squadron dedicated to motorcycles stormed useful to provide a little support quickly on the table.

5) The pr?dators:
The pr?dator was virtually played, it was somewhat tough and expensive. The change in his armour takes into account this fact, with a 5 + strengthened rather than a 4 + improves its resistance slightly in absolute terms (the difference between 4 + and 5 + renforced is minimal), but greatly increases its resistance to weapons Macro. With the reduction in the cost of the squadron pr?dator is immediately more interesting and playable. It must be understood that in the various games that are 40k and the old version of epic, pr?dator was a relatively armoured vehicle closest to the leman russ as rhino in terms of armour, it tends to match.
The Destructor has also seen its amended value of FF 5 + to 4 +, which is understandable in view of its weapons adapted to the shootings (2 heavy bolters). It is also a bonus to compensate its relative weakness facing his brother the Annihilator. In addition, this will facilitate their specification and usefulness.

6) The vindicator:
For the same reasons that the pr?dator its shielding has been revised. The increase of 5cm his speed as part of the logic of consistency profiles, the vindicator is supposed to be a little slower than the rhino, but not at this point, not to the point of being barely faster than the Infantry, this gain is the movement at the land-raider, a heavily armoured but planned to support easily.
The big change concerns his weapon. His canon becomes a weapon MW 4 + 30cm, and its value becomes FF MW.
His weapon is supposed to be the most destructive of 40k, much more violent against an armoured than a multimeta, and more suited to crush the infantry. The macro was therefore an obvious choice. A weapon that flattens the terminators, tanks and heavy at 40K, a weapon that in earlier versions of epic was able to penetrate armour much more important than the howitzer, than the multi-melta, etc ...
The AP3 leave with a + / + AT4 was illogical. Likewise the fact that it is cancelling the macro safeguarding covered, and thus already partly reflect its role anti-fortification.
Similarly it gives interest to a shielded, it is useful to list navy, its macro shooting practice is tense, and it becomes a genuine vehicle with a supportive macro FF, justified by the fact that his only weapon is his huge cannon.
The vindicator becomes an armored useful and useable.

7) The Archivist:
For 50pts, the archivist is too expensive. Where the master has a specific role in the army who need to increase combined assaults because of the size of the squadron, and where the chaplain ensures a point in the outcome of combat, the archivist has only a bonus in FF. Bonus therefore not use it in close, a bonus useful when supporting detachments onslaught of close friends, but a bonus which depends on the unity that accompanies rare are those with a good FF, and a bonus that if it is profitable not only used his weapon energy character. In short, the interest remains quite limited, for 50pts, despite the leader, the difference with the other characters was too broad. Assuming that the archivist must be remote support, adds a direct shot makes it playable Elsewhere in assault, and thus gives a useful new support within walking distance. With a Macro 5+  to 30cm, the archivist is useful in the training of fire that must support remote their allies in the assault. The archivist is thus rendered usefulness, ease of use, while being from the other characters.

8) The Dreadnought:
Adding the Fearless ability . The dreadnoughts, are units of shock, veterans already close to death who have the desire to help their chapter so heroic. After thousands of years of struggle, they have seen the worst horrors, and no longer fear.
The ability makes them fearless in terms game more interesting in relation to their cost. As an assault, that's good motivation to preserve their brothers in battle in defiance of their lives.
This simple modification encouraged to include dreads in squads to support the various detachments.

Aircraft:
1) The Marauder bomber from 2PB to 3 PB, shielding ability to 6 + damage 2:
It was noted that there was very little Marauder played and shielding that are not in the equation with W40k profile.
The increase in the number of points of the dam is to enable the marauder to be more attractive with the pawn impact
 Provides additional training to 6PB and also continue to be relatively effective in the event of loss of aircraft as a bomber would never benefits of a bonus for reaching and with a profile 2PB say that the Marauder becomes almost useless in terms of bombing.

2) All heavy weapons bolters matched on aircraft have a range of 30cm:
It was found that many profiles aircraft had a different range for the same type of weapon, namely heavy bolters matched.
It was therefore decided to harmonize brought to 30cm for all heavy bolters matched to stick to the motto:
"A weapon, a profile."

Next post will be the IG

Jay (I hope that is understandable).

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:06 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 21 2008,13:49)
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and the 100% lack of mods to the Siegemasters mean that that list will remain the singlemost overpowered army list in all of Epicdom. :(

All the Swordwind armies need some tweaking/fixes still... they've never had an "errata" before, not even a proper "review".

Siegemasters are rarely seen in actual play, which is why people probably have no idea how powerful they are.

Feral Orks, obviously no one has faced massed Squig Katapults or zooming Boarboyz if they think they are balanced.

Biel-Tan Eldar, people have been playing Eldar 1.8 armies for over a year now, and Eldar felt balanced, for the most part.  Going back to *more powerful* units is going to make cries of "Eldar cheez!" echo again, even with the removal of "Pulse" and "Spirit Stones".

The lack of a more extensive "army review" is a *major* fumble, in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Barring one or two points (Attack bikes & MW Demolisher) the French seem to have modded the Marine list really well.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Imperial Guard :
GI Special rules:
1) Commissars: The random number of commissars was abolished in favour of a fixed number depending on the size of the games. This to have a fixed number of 6 commissars in a game of 3000pts. To do this, an IG army was given by Commissioner 1 slice of 500pts even incomplete.  

Units:
1) loses Deathstrike "no line of sight" Same as TC

2) Vultures, missiles hellstrikes spend 120cm AT2 + one shot come 90cm AT3+ one shot: It turned out that the unit was clearly too strong and so easy to use kleenex at the limit it was decided to change the profile hellstrike of forcing the player to become a little more thinking about the placement and timing of the use of a training Vultures.

3) Hellhound his FF3 + becomes ignores covered: Boost seemed obvious to on the one hand, represent the fury of a launch
Heavy flame type Inferno and another to give a little interest to an improvement which is considered by the majority of expensive.

4) Bombard range from 45cm to 60cm: Again a change seemed necessary in order to restore a little color to that unit who suffer from comparison face of a formation of Manticores prefered in 95% of cases because of its immensely greater range.

5) Demolisher becomes 30cm MA4 +, +1 attack and gives MA FF for the baneblade and leman russ. This contribution to the upgrading of heavy armoured baneblade as frontline.

6) Leman russ demolisher: the shooting from 3 + to 4 +, and its cost 250pts at the 3: This amendment to the shooting intervenes
Following the new profile of the demolisher it allocates an extra attack MA. And the cost revised upwards to 50pts
Always as a result of the modification of the canon demolisher.

7) Baneblade, the howitzer 75cm AP4 + / + AC4 becomes: Super howitzer 75cm AP3 + / + AC3: This change is part of the reclamation work even rehabilitation Baneblade as heavy armoured frontline.

8) All heavy bolters heavy armour become heavy bolters matched: All heavy must have this modif
Of heavy bolters paired, in the interests of consistency fluffique. For in Warhammer 40,000, all heavy armoured vehicles are equipped of heavy bolters matched. However this does not alter the values of shooting heavy armour benefiting from this change.

9) Rough riders : loss  the extra attack: Balancing this unit which gave 150pts for training
6 units of powerful and too cheap given the many capabilities it is generously equipped.

Aircraft:
10) The Marauder bomber from 2PB to 3 PB, shielding ability to 6 + damage 2:
It was noted that there was very little Marauder played and shielding that are not in the equation with W40k profile.
The increase in the number of points of the dam is to enable the marauder to be more attractive with the pawn impact  provides additional training to 6PB and also continue to be relatively effective in the case of a lost Aircraft as a bomber would never benefits of a bonus for reaching and with a profile 2PB say that the Marauder becomes virtually useless in terms of bombing.

Jay Next list will be Biel-Tan

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:16 pm 
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(okpjay890 @ Mar. 21 2008,14:03)
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Next post will be the IG

Jay (I hope that is understandable).

Interesting stuff!

I'd suggest posting each army's "changes" in the various force list forums here: Epic Armies

And put links in this thread.  That other forum is for the discussion of actual army lists and rules, so would probably be a better place for lists of changes.

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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Arrg crossing post ?:p

Well at the moment we set the following lists and I would like you to explain our results :

SM
IG
Biel-Tan
Black Legion
Lost and Damned
Orks

Ongoing discussions Tau and AMTL

I'd suggest posting each army's "changes" in the various force list forums here: Epic Armies

Ok i will do that, thx for  for your interest

Jay





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 Post subject: Official errata posted
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:23 pm 
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I would love to see what the French ERC have done with AMTL... please drop by the AMTL sub-forum!

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