Z, I believe you. I just promised Honda I would take care of his Elysians while he is away dealing with family stuff. Thus my considerably nosy behavior when it comes to the Lightning units.

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That's entirely a strawman, and I'm sure you know it. All I'm saying is that the often-contradictory fluff and game stats are less important than how they work in Epic itself.


The problem is that the Thunderbolt, in its current incarnation, is a generalist plane. It doesn't really work as a powerful interceptor, as it doesn't trade off any other capabilities.


Hey, you're right. We've been playing it incorrectly that only Ground AA fire places the BM.


This doesn't actually help them do more damage, it only prevents them from doing less. (may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference)


Then why do the Lascannons have an AA value at all?


Likewise, having slightly longer effective range with better AA stats would also help differentiate them


The Thunderbolt as its represented in Epic comes with underwing rockets. Could we have the Lightning Attack Variant come with the Skystrike missiles, perhaps? That would give it a solid AA ability. While the stock Thunderbolt is better armed than the stock Lightning, the Epic Thunderbolt is in a Ground Attack configuration: can't the Lightning be in an interception configuration? Otherwise what's the point of having it, if it's more fragile than the Thunderbolt, with no greater ability to perform any of its missions?

Nope, reducto ad absurdum, a total valid technique.



Sorry, but that's what you get. The Imperium doesn't have a plane that does more damage on interception than the Thunderbolt. That's not what the Lightning is for; it's a lighter, faster, longer ranged interceptor with a lighter weapon load.



It does help compared to the thunderbolt. Against any significant defense AA you'll likely lose a thunderbolt, and so lose half your effective AA. The lightnings are less likely to have this problem, so will, most likely, do more damage.



The word "mainly".



Not in a way that's background representative. Again, reducto ad absurbum, giving them TK weapons would differenciate them, but wouldn't be appropriate. The key is the draw a balance between representing the background and having a unique role.



Potentially, but I don't think they're needed, and they'd need a price bump.



I disagree, I think it's a better interceptor due to its much higher ability to avoid defensive and ground based AA, so it's more likely to survive to fulfill its mission. It obviously has more of a niche role than the generalist Thunderbolt, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a role at all.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

i think the 'absurd' part of reducto ad absurdum should give a hint as to how valid an arguement it actually makes
yes, it may be allowed under queensberry rules, but that dont actually make it a reasonable arguement :P

anyway, i dislike 45cm range weapons, i think 30cm should be fine. give the lightning two 30cm attacks (fwiw, i definitely feel the same should be true of the hell-talons 45cm range lascannon, and to a lesser extent (because it cannot intercept) the marauders one aswell)

i also think a 6+ armour save to represent mobility is a good idea (if land speeders can have a 4+ save...)

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They key feature of the lightning is the long ranged autocannon. It's 72 freaking inches in 40k!

We're only looking at a single AA6+ at that range, is that really such a problem?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

The difference between a 6+ save and no save is pretty negligible. Even if it does come with no save a Lightning is overall a fair bit more survivable than a Thunderbolt because it attacks at a greater range.

With a 30cm range it can freely attack Marauders, Thunderhawks, Thunderhawk Transporters, Landing Craft, Fighta-Bommerz and Landas without coming into their all-round defensive AA range. That is definitely worth a downgrade of their CAP attacks from 2 x 4+ to 1 x 4+ and 1 x 5+ in my book.

After looking at the comparative stats I’d say it should stay with no armour rather than 6+. It’s otherwise looking a bit too good in comparison to the Thunderbolt.

It does definitely deserve 45cm range, the long ranged main gun is it's distinctive feature and it has the longest range of any W40k fighter.

well, mainly i want the helltalons 45cm range gun lowered. and it hurts my case while another unit has an interceptable AA shot at 45cm (though i guess the "come on, this 'specialised interceptor' craft has a less good shot at the same range as the supposed 'bomber' craft (not, i'll note, the interceptor we do have) has!" arguement is also fair

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Also for comparison the Epic-UK version of the Lightning Strike has a 45cm AT5+/AA5+ shot as well as 2 x 30cm AT4+.

I can live with no armour if it keeps the distinctive 45cm range.

I would have no problem with it being slightly more expensive than T-Bolt to keep it balanced.

Are we really haggling about 15mm of armour here as to whether it's 6+ or nada?

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I think the 6+ save has to stay. Rememeber there is also the Lightning Strike with only has a Twin Lascannon and 6 Hellstrike Missiles. The Strike WILL fly into the AA umbrella in order to attack any ground targets.

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I'm ambivalent on the save, either is fine with me, but the range has to stay.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'd agree with Zombo on the range issue, as it gives the plane a different niche to the Thunderbolt and also matches the background.

I'd like to see no armour save, meaning that the Lightning player would have to choose whether to jink and get a 4+ save, or certainly lose a plane, each time the formation is hit.

Again, that matches the background and gives it a unique niche: lighter armour, longer range.

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I'm fine with that, just as long as the 45cm shot is worth it. It will probably mean changing things for the Elysians but I'm fine with that.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.