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Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
Morg
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:49 am 
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I favour the multiple activations approach over the single activation for one simple reason: If you allow the Titan to activate all its weapons in one go and also allow it to target multiple targets it might prove too destructive.

Pointswise - I am not aware on any agreement on value yet - it might actually represent the major part of an army which activates in one go. The weapon array is really impressive and the Hellstorm cannon alone can obliterate a several formations at once.

I'd rather see the multiple activations option to at least give the opponent a chance to participate in the battle before his forces are annihilated. Plus the multiple activations enhance the impression of a very large and slow machine moving over the battlefield. And, as previously mentioned by E&C, it integrates better into the game flow.

I am undecided on the DC issue. I am not sure if an exception to the existing rules should be made but whoever fields an Imperator Titan should be prepared to do a limited amount of bookkeeping.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:34 pm 
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That's not what I was asking, Blarg.

Your order system for the non-Chassis portions are dependent on the action the Chassis takes.  If the Chassis is broken, it takes no action.  That's not covered in your system (unless I missed it).  What are the other portions allowed to do?

For example, the Chassis announces it will stay in place and the Hellstorm Sustains Fire.  Later in the turn the Chassis breaks.  Presumably, it gets a withdrawal move.  A withdrawal is 2 moves, but it only moves 15cm.  The unbroken Carapace then wants to fire.  Does it get to Sustain like the Hellstorm because the Chassis announced it would remain stationary?  Can it fire as Advance because the Chassis took a single move?  Or does it fire at -1 because the Withdrawal move is a double move, even though the Chassis only chose to move once?

===

E&C:  I see some wickedly nasty combinations with your system.  If I read it right, it can basically always fire everything except a few heavy bolters and do a full strength assault.  That's a major increase in offensive power.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:07 pm 
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Your order system for the non-Chassis portions are dependent on the action the Chassis takes.  If the Chassis is broken, it takes no action.  That's not covered in your system (unless I missed it).  What are the other portions allowed to do?


Get on the phone, call the Princeps, and tell him to wake up!  :D  :p   OK, I'm kidding obviously.

Neal, good question.  Yet another reason why I am going to have to re-word how the orders / firing modifier rules work.  Since the chassis is not moving, because it is not taking an action, then I'd dare say that the other sections could issue just about whatever orders they want.  They can go on Sustain or Overwatch because the Chassis is not moving.  Since all of the sections are Fearless and can end their withdrawl move (that they don't have to take) within 15cm of an enemy formation the other sections could issue Engage orders - they just won't be able to move to get closer to the targeted formation.  Otherwise all of the other orders, except where noted in the rules, should be open.

For example, the Chassis announces it will stay in place and the Hellstorm Sustains Fire.  Later in the turn the Chassis breaks.  Presumably, it gets a withdrawal move.  A withdrawal is 2 moves, but it only moves 15cm.  The unbroken Carapace then wants to fire.  Does it get to Sustain like the Hellstorm because the Chassis announced it would remain stationary?  Can it fire as Advance because the Chassis took a single move?  Or does it fire at -1 because the Withdrawal move is a double move, even though the Chassis only chose to move once?

Hadn't thought of that.  D'oh!!!  Your question makes it obvious that non-Chassis units will have to have their orders and/or firing modifiers based upon the number of CM that the Chassis moves, not on the orders (or lack there of) that are issued.  In the case of your well-thought question I'd have to say that the Carapace can fire as if it were on Advance orders since the Withdrawl move was only 15cm, the same as one move.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:11 pm 
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E&C:  I see some wickedly nasty combinations with your system.  If I read it right, it can basically always fire everything except a few heavy bolters and do a full strength assault.  That's a major increase in offensive power.


That'd be the same as any other Titan-class vehicle in the game then...


I dislike the multiple sections taking multiple stacks of BM's proposal, especially the whole 'Well, my chassis and my left arm is broken, but my right arm just rallied'... it just doesn't feel right to me.

I'd rather see such things handled with a damage table.





With Blarg's proposal, what happens if the Chassis has no BM's but the other sections do... during an assault, does the Emperor count as having BM's or not?


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nealhunt
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:54 pm 
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That'd be the same as any other Titan-class vehicle in the game then...


I don't understand this statement.  A Warlord titan cannot both fire weapons normally and initiate an assault.  Fire/support, sure, but not fire/initiate.

==

Overall, I'm not sure how to work it.  I'm inclined to think simply splitting fire would be the most elegant way to manage it.  I'd definitely want to try something simple like "units over 1000 points may fire at 2 separate targets" first.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:43 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jul. 25 2007,18:54)
QUOTE
Overall, I'm not sure how to work it. ?I'm inclined to think simply splitting fire would be the most elegant way to manage it. ?I'd definitely want to try something simple like "units over 1000 points may fire at 2 separate targets" first.

Splitting fire would be the most elegant solution, but when that was discussed over 2 years ago (The file that held the rules I posted at the beginning of this thread is dated March 23, 2005.) the Repeater Monkeys ("But Jervis said...") screamed it down, no matter how much sense it made. ?Instead of limiting it to just 2 different targets I'd suggest splitting it up along the lines of what I did: Chassis, Carapace, Left Arm, and Right Arm and allow each section to fire at their own targets. ?Each section has a reasonable amount of firepower that seems to have its own purpose, making them have their own target selection seem logical.  That would be the quick and easy approach to making the MegaWE workable units in Epic: Armageddon.

But, I'd also argue that if you're going to spend too much money, spend too much time to assemble and paint, and have these monstrosities in the game then go ahead and splurge to make these machines dynamic and something to fear.  Yeah, the rules I posted are not complete and the questions posted have pointed out some holes, but I expected (and hoped) that a critical review would be done to point out needed corrections.  I dare say that once the initial review looks like it has ended and the verbage tightened up I think we will have some neat playtest rules that should make the Emperors and the MegaGargants fun, playable units.

But why stop there?  I assume that some intrepid souls will try to fit the Baccus "Command Horizon" stuff into the EpicA rules, and the Habitation Module seems like a perfect condidate for being a MegaWE and rules similar to what I have posted.  

In the next day or so I'll try to incorporate revisions based upon the questions posed, and maybe even structure the rules so that they are generic to all MegaWE.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:54 pm 
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I don't understand this statement.  A Warlord titan cannot both fire weapons normally and initiate an assault.  Fire/support, sure, but not fire/initiate.


Sorry, I was unclearly referring to the lack of degredation of abilities of the machine as damage is taken, as found in other Titans in Epic.


You're right about the Fire-the-Engage. A note with 'No Secondary Systems may fire in any turn in which an Imperator Titan undertakes an Engage order' would sort it.

A specification that 'The main Hull must be activated first, before the Secondary Systems' would also tone down its power, preventing every weapons system Sustaining, and then the Imperator moving into cover at the end of the turn.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Jul. 26 2007,10:43)
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Instead of limiting it to just 2 different targets I'd suggest splitting it up along the lines of what I did: Chassis, Carapace, Left Arm, and Right Arm and allow each section to fire at their own targets. ?Each section has a reasonable amount of firepower that seems to have its own purpose, making them have their own target selection seem logical.

That's precisely what I was thinking.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:34 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Jul. 26 2007,16:00)
QUOTE

(Blarg D Impaler @ Jul. 26 2007,10:43)
QUOTE
Instead of limiting it to just 2 different targets I'd suggest splitting it up along the lines of what I did: Chassis, Carapace, Left Arm, and Right Arm and allow each section to fire at their own targets.  Each section has a reasonable amount of firepower that seems to have its own purpose, making them have their own target selection seem logical.

That's precisely what I was thinking.

Actually, that same method for splitting fire occurred to me on the drive in to work this morning.

I suppose great minds really DO think alike...  :laugh:

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:16 pm 
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I've always thought that the easiest way to deal with the imp was to make it activate as a single formation but allow each section to fire at their own targets (as already mentioned), but to have an activation modifier of -1 per additional target.

So if an Imp wants to fire at 4 seperate formations then it is at -3 to activate, -4 if it has any BMs.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Jul. 26 2007,12:16)
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I've always thought that the easiest way to deal with the imp was to make it activate as a single formation but allow each section to fire at their own targets (as already mentioned), but to have an activation modifier of -1 per additional target.

So if an Imp wants to fire at 4 seperate formations then it is at -3 to activate, -4 if it has any BMs.

That might be good idea for a Warlord or Reaver, but I think the Imperator is big enough, with enough crew, targetting arrays, etc. to allow it to fire without any activation penalties.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:40 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Jul. 26 2007,12:42)
QUOTE

(ragnarok @ Jul. 26 2007,12:16)
QUOTE
I've always thought that the easiest way to deal with the imp was to make it activate as a single formation but allow each section to fire at their own targets (as already mentioned), but to have an activation modifier of -1 per additional target.

So if an Imp wants to fire at 4 seperate formations then it is at -3 to activate, -4 if it has any BMs.

That might be good idea for a Warlord or Reaver, but I think the Imperator is big enough, with enough crew, targetting arrays, etc. to allow it to fire without any activation penalties.

I like that idea - allow a titan to fire at different target formations but give a -1 modifier per extra formation over one that you want to fire at. ?I'd add the caveat that each weapon can only fire at a single formation. ?

In other words, a titan can fire every weapon at a single formation as per the rules or it can opt to fire each weapon at a seperate formation, but each additional formation beyond the first incurs a -1 penalty to the activation role.

This begs two questions: ?

What about the Supreme Commander re-roll. ?Could the titan try the initial activation roll with multiple targets, fail it, and then try the re-roll with only one target formation?

Is this something that we would want to extend to all war engines? ?What if a Shadowsword were to be near some enemy infantry and would want to fire its Volcano Cannon at a target WE in the distance. ?Would we want to let it fire its heavy bolters at the infantry formation and the Volcano Cannon at the WE with a -1 penalty to the activation roll? ?If we were to do this we would have to limit the number of seperate targets, either by designating groups of weapons or something simplistic like 1 target per starting DC of the firing WE.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Is this something that we would want to extend to all war engines?  What if a Shadowsword were to be near some enemy infantry and would want to fire its Volcano Cannon at a target WE in the distance.  Would we want to let it fire its heavy bolters at the infantry formation and the Volcano Cannon at the WE with a -1 penalty to the activation roll?  If we were to do this we would have to limit the number of seperate targets, either by designating groups of weapons or something simplistic like 1 per starting DC of the firing WE.


A worthy proposal, and probably worthy of its own thread.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:21 pm 
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Blarg,

If you were just allowing the Mega-WE to split fire, the SC reroll would not apply.  The re-roll is just for a failed activation.  Of course, then you end up with an all-or-nothing effect with the unit.  I don't know if that is a bad thing but the separate activations you originally proposed would be the best way I'd see to overcome this effect, of course then you aren't splitting fire... :p

I don't think we should start mucking with the other titans splitting fire.  The argument could easily be made for a 'Uge Warband or other large formations - it certainly puts the game on a slippery slope.

IMO Being able to split fire is tremendously powerful in Epic and should be reserved for REALLY big things:  Imperator Titan, Mega Gargant, Warmaster Nice's IG Zeppelin (which I will be trying to replicate one of these days), and so on.  Allowing it for the other titans and WEs just screams re-pointing the units which is something I don't want to see.

Right now Spacecraft can in a sense split their fire and -for one turn- it is a big deal.  Imagine something doing that every turn.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:33 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jul. 26 2007,15:21)
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I don't think we should start mucking with the other titans splitting fire. ?The argument could easily be made for a 'Uge Warband or other large formations - it certainly puts the game on a slippery slope.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

EDIT How about limiting it to Warlords, Great Gargants and other similarly sized things?




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