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Is Epic lagging behind?

Simulated Knave

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:03 pm

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Imperial Armours are being published at twice the rate they once were. I think it's fair to say the pace has picked up somewhat.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:32 pm

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Simulated Knave wrote:

Imperial Armours are being published at twice the rate they once were. I think it's fair to say the pace has picked up somewhat.

Indeed. But Codexes have been used to retcon and introduce new stuff for 25 years now.
New stuff appearing, is nothing new.

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Simulated Knave

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:18 pm

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True enough.

I dunno. Do people like the "experimental formation" idea? Should we try coming up with a few for various new/experimental units?

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captPiett

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:37 pm

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I think that the "experimental formation" idea has a lot of merit - new stuff, minimal contentiousness, non-development dilution, etc. Plus there's the precedent of "collectors models" in the back of the core rulebook. Our group was using the FW Reaver with AML/gatling blaster/volcano cannon before we got to the "official one" and there was little problem with it, for example.

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madd0ct0r

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:21 am

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just a note, i asked a gaming buddy if he fancied trying epic necrons and his first question was 'are they the old 'crons or the new 'crons? Becuase I like the old ones'.

there's room for a lot of lists in epic, as long as they are made clear the sort of force they represent.

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carlos

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:26 pm

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Went looking for a thunderfire cannon for the first time. How is this a Space Marine weapon? Makes no sense for the type of force they are.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:38 pm

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carlos wrote:

Went looking for a thunderfire cannon for the first time. How is this a Space Marine weapon? Makes no sense for the type of force they are.

It's an airmobile field gun.

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CaptainSenioris

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:41 pm

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From a background perspective I believe that they can be automated and set to patrol/point defence as the Space Marines don't have the manpower to be everywhere at once. The model suggests otherwise. It is a bit silly given the marines modus operandi but I like it.

Though what E&C says is also quite true.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:02 am

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For "Marines can't be everywhere at once" they have Tarantula Sentry Guns.
And yes Thunderfire Cannons are airmobile field guns. Parachute units have these from the beginning.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:42 pm

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Phew! OK just finished reading the thread (1.5 hours later lol!)

Personally I feel the biggest problem with development here is the negativity generated by personal opinion. Sure, have input, but don't dribble on and on about something when your point isn't taken as gospel. It hurts to be overruled but think about the other side of the argument. Man! I wish I had a dollar for all the threads that turned into 15 page discussions around this!

Another issue I find, is if someone doesn't like your list because it doesn't include their favourite iconic unit etc they get bent out of shape or go off and write their own version; or there's endless bitching about it instead of just playing it first and then adding constructive criticism/feedback to help support the development. Maybe try to envision what the AC is trying to do before shooting his idea down based solely on your personal opinion, or worse, ignoring the list entirely. Endless bitching and whining helps no one. Remember, while it may not look how you want it, firstly, you're not at the helm trying to balance the thing with everyone harping in your ear and secondly, you can't always have everything you want. Epic isn't designed to have the kitchen sink. Just realise this and move on.

On the point that AC's need to actively get people to play their lists. It's like drawing blood from a stone most times. I've tried it before and made very little headway. People will play what they want. If they like your list they will play it. If not, well.... Given the obvious minimal play time most of us get, you have to go with the flow more and understand this isn't a race to the end. A first draft often seems to meet with the view that "this won't work as a tourney list!" Of course not, it's a first draft!

It takes time and effort. Caning an AC because he seems afk is silly. Also as an AC, personally, I prefer others to play my lists so I get some objectivity, so bagging an AC for not playing their list often enough doesn't seem fair.

In regards to Epic lagging behind. I don't feel that way at all. In fact I feel the total opposite given Apocalypse is the (illegitimate - word blocker! sheesh!) child of Epic and 40K. 40K is trying to emulate Epic here folks. It just uses the main medium of the production company to do it - 28mm toy soldiers. Getting caught up trying to shoe-horn in every new unit type GW spawns from it's gigantic maw is madness. Like I mentioned in the Marine thread for new units, Epic doesn't need 10 variant Land Raiders when 2-4 would be sufficient to accomplish the job. Given Epic's abstract nature in design, all the others are just fan-boy wet dreams - messy to clean up.

Right it's 12.45am so I'm going to bed. I think I've waffled on long enough anyway.

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frogbear

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:21 pm

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2.21am and reading this. Going to bed....

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Borka

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:20 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
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Very interesting thread, a lot of interesting and good posts/views.

As for epic lagging behind, I don't feel that way. I was very positively surprised when I got back to epic 1,5 years ago after a 14 or 15 year hiatus. There were many list that I wasn't expecting at all, developed by the community! I could play necrons, tau, dark eldar and a large variety of other lists. A few newer units missing from some lists is not a problem for me but at the same time I'm not opposed to adding some of them as time goes.

I think the last 6 months have been great with the compendium coming out and then later the tournament pack. I too find though that there is a bit of list spam and that that probably is a hindrance for lists to get finished, as our efforts becomes diluted.

For the future I like the proposed idea of the community working on a supplement or perhaps a list(s) at a time and for the netERC and applicable AC's to lead the effort. Sort of like this list(s) are the one(s) we aim to develop now and they are netEA's current "official" developing list(s). Maybe everyone will not contribute every time (because certain lists are uninteresting to them), but the efforts of our limited community would probably be better used and condensed. Perhaps we would finish lists to a greater extent. It would be a bit like how epicUK's does it, but of course open to the community.

my 0.02$

cheers

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Irisado

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:35 pm

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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:31 pm
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Epic has been lagging behind ever since GW dropped it as its third core game, so I find the question a bit puzzling to be honest.

My perspective is that changes only need to be made to army lists which GW actually produced if the lists themselves have serious internal or external balance issues, and/or there are units which are far too effective or very weak. In other words, if there are no balance issues, don't keep tinkering with the lists.

New units do not need to be added to the existing lists. There are already a myriad to choose from in most armies, so why keep adding more? Before someone makes the comparison between 40K and Epic, I still play 40K, and have done for over twenty years, so I know that there are more and more new units being introduced, but why does Epic have to copy 40K?

I like the fact that Epic is different from 40K. I like the fact that we don't have to keep up with the latest trends. All these ideas about constantly having to develop the lists are totally unhelpful to players like me who want a consistent set of rules and army lists to use. I don't want to keep having to follow developments in Epic as well as 40K.

If players want to create new lists because such lists were never put together by GW, then that's great. Include whichever units you want, providing they are balanced. These lists should always be labelled in some way to show they are not core Epic lists though.

As for the whole NetERC, AC, and all the rest of it. I have the following thoughts:

They are all volunteers are they not? Some of you are complaining about their lack of devotion as though it were their full time job, and that they're getting paid for it. This is unreasonable, and I really think that it is important to stress that real life gets in the way of this sort of work more often than not.

Why do they constantly need to keep changing the rules and updating the army lists? Stability is very important, especially when it comes to getting new players involved. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, one of the things that turns me off the whoe NetERC/NetEA system is this constant need to update rules and lists which don't need to be updated (see my comments in the Lost and the Damned development thread for an example).

My final thought is simply this. Things are currently far too confusing for new players, and for veterans of the old Space Marine era Epic period like me. We need one clear set of rules and army lists which everyone plays to, and adding new units to tried and tested lists, and changing their rules, will not allow this to happen. Please stop trying to change things which are not broken, and stop reinventing the wheel.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:31 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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If this rumoured/leaked release list is true, Epic's about to get left behind even moreso:

I'd guess that RE means a resin kit, and PL means a new plastic kit.

Quote:

40K
281041230110209 Imperial Agents Enforcer with Heavy Stubber RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
284054630110202 Kroot Kroothawks RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
286010311080200 Cult Hybrid Upgrade Pack PL a10 XianD 02 cc
286011130110208 Patriarch Dumas, The Veiled Fiend RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
280002330140207 Sisters of Battle Canoness with Power Axe RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280000211440200 Sisters of Battle Seraphim / Patronica Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
280000111440201 Sisters of Battle Battle Sisters PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
280000411840206 Sisters of Battle Exorcist / Catafalque of Sins PL a18 Len_A 02 cc
281047530110208 Imperial Agents Obsideo Assassin RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
281049111440209 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Kill Team PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
281049230140202 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Librarian RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280002430140206 Sisters of Battle Prioress Lazarea Verata RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280002230140208 Sisters of Battle Sister Superior Magdalenia RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280000330740205 Sisters of Battle Repentia Squad RE b07 Len_A 02 cc
288023030140207 Harlequin Solitaire RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
283041230710209 Cabal Tarellian Cotor with Dragontongue RE b07 Len_B 02 cc
283041530110204 Cabal Alpha Psyker RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
282021211440203 Mechanicus Battle-Servitors / Khorne Caedes Engines PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
287018930140205 Freebooters Ogreen Kaptain RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
285000030110204 Cypher RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
256145512010301 Tau Empire Nautilus Defence Platform PL a20 Len_B 03 cc
256146011840307 Tau Empire Mako PL a18 Len_A 03 cc
256145730740301 Commander Farsight RE b07 Len_A 03 cc
256146211440307 Tau Empire Vespid Stingwings / Vespid Spinewings PL a14 Len_A 03 cc
208263530941100 The Avatar of Khaine RE b09 Len_A 11 cc
208284511450206 Eldar Wraithguard / Cataphracts PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208284711550201 Eldar Sky Chariots / Shining Spears PL a15 Len_C 02 cc
208285011450208 Eldar Warpspiders / Everguard PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208285230150200 Eldar Black Warden RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208297830180402 Phoenix Lord Kyme'doc, The Planetwister RE c01 XianD 04 cc
208281811450202 Eldar Eldritch Raiders PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208282112050207 Eldar Webway Gate PL a20 Len_C 02 cc
208283411250206 Eldar Phoenix Lord Nuadhu, The Fireheart / Alean Vyper PL a12 Len_C 02 cc
208283512050200 Eldar Spirit Warrior PL a20 Len_C 02 cc
208283911550202 Eldar Dragon Riders PL a15 Len_C 02 cc
208286130150208 Eldar Fire Dragon Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286230150207 Eldar Dire Avenger Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286330150206 Eldar Howling Banshee Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286430150205 Eldar Striking Scorpion Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286530150204 The Avatar of the Young King RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
206304411040306 Chaos Dark Chapel Upgrade Pack PL a10 Len_A 03 cc
206304711540308 Chaos Bike Squadron PL a15 Len_A 03 cc
206305211440303 Chaos Noise Marines PL a14 Len_A 03 cc
206304811440300 Chaos Thousand Sons PL a14 Len_A 03 cc
200462312010203 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Defence Wall PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
200462412010202 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Tower / Pillar of Heroes PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
200462512340209 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Monastery PL a23 Len_A 02 cc
208281612050205 Eldar Lamia Strike Fighter / Moon Siren Bomber PL a20 Len_C 02 cc
208283611550205 Eldar Jetbikes PL a15 Len_C 02 cc
208287930150207 Eldar Warlock with Force Staff RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208288530950204 Eldar Swooping Hawks RE b09 Len_C 02 cc
200470512040203 Space Marine Land Avenger PL a20 Len_A 02 cc
200468512010203 Space Marine Praetor Warmachine PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
200465411540206 Space Marine Bike Squadron / Crusader Bike Squadron PL a15 Len_A 02 cc
200467830740205 Space Marine Skyshatter Cannon RE b07 Len_A 02 cc
200469630140209 Space Marine Terminator First Hand RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
200469230140203 Space Marine Librarian with Jump Pack RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
200462811440204 Space Marine Neophytes PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200464511440201 Space Marine Techmarine with Artificer Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200468011440204 Space Marine Sword Brethren / Nightflame Veteran Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200472230140203 Space Marine Librarian Epistolary RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
200475630110203 Paladin Marshall Sieghelm RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
200470612040202 Space Marine Land Avenger Vulkan / Land Avenger Invictus PL a20 Len_A 02 cc
200470331080275 Space Marine Bionics Upgrade Pack RE a10 XianD 02 li
200470231080276 Space Marine Defender Upgrade Pack RE a10 XianD 02 li
200471330110208 Iron Father Maalthun RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
200471730110204 Chapter Master Tu’Shan RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
200480130110202 Severus Agemman, Regent of Ultramar RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
200480630110207 Helveticus the Ancient, Bearer of Honour RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
201278911240205 Ork Warbuggy / Deff Racer PL a12 Len_A 02 cc
201281911240205 Ork Wartrakk Skorcha / Flakk Trakk PL a12 Len_A 02 cc
201279011540202 Ork Deff Koptas PL a15 Len_A 02 cc
201286730140200 Wazzdakka Gutsmek RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
227162030941106 Dark Eldar Grotesque Squad RE b09 Len_A 11 cc
202321411411107 Imperial Guard Storm Troopers / Iron Cloak Veterans PL a14 Len_B 11 cc
202342311811101 Imperial Guard Hydra PL a18 Len_B 11 cc
271074511840390 Bloodthirster PL a18 Len_A 03 186080111840398
271074611840399 Lord of Change PL a18 Len_A 03 186080211840397
271074811440399 Chaos Daemons Warp Stalkers / Chaos Furies PL a14 Len_A 03 186080311440398
201281712010205 Ork Flying Fortress / Rokk Launcha PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
201279412010205 Ork Gun Fortress / Mega Tellyporta PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
201283811440204 Ork Flash Gitz / Tellyporta Nobz PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
201279911440206 Ork Meganobz / Painboy Cyborks PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
201285130140209 Ork Warphead RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
201283912010207 Ork Klan Fort PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
201284130740204 Ork Boar Squigs RE b07 Len_A 02 cc
201284430940212 Ork Squiggotaur RE b09 Len_A 02 mf
201283611540203 Ork Big Guns / Pulsa Launchas PL a15 Len_A 02 cc
201285230140208 Ork Painboy with Cleava Harness RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
201285630140204 Ork Grot Nurses RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
201286930140208 Gorbuzz ThreeEye RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
201287430140200 Gritlegg Maksmesh RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
201288330140208 Boss-Kommissa Grotzki RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
200461211440203 Space Marine Scouts with Astartes Grenade Launchers PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200467911540205 Space Marine Gale Claw Supremacy Fighter PL a15 Len_A 02 cc
200465011440203 Space Marine Space Marine Tactical Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200465512010202 Space Marine Land Raider Medusa PL a20 Len_B 02 cc
271081411840399 Great Unclean One PL a18 Len_A 03 186083311840397
271081511840398 Keeper of Secrets PL a18 Len_A 03 186083411840396

I've picked out some of the more interesting ones to ruminate upon:

- Cult Hybrids - Genestealer Cults are back?

- Sisters of battle getting a full plastic army treatment

- Tau getting static defence turrets
- Tau "Mako" which may be the medium sized transport flyer that's been rumoured for a while. It would make sense because every other army is getting flyers lately.

- Some new Eldar infantry/LV sized units - Skychariots, Everguard, Eldrich Raiders, Dragon Riders.
- Eldar Exarchs are now called Xentarchs? Or is that something new?

- Space Marine Land Avenger - probably the long rumoured medium tank that sits between a Rhino and Land Raider in size.
- Space Marine Praetor Warmachine - No idea, but it's a plastic kit. My total guess is that it's a Knight equivilent ala the Grey Knights Dreadknight.
- Space Marine Skyshatter Cannon - My guess is an AA counterpart to the Thunderfire Cannon
- The Land Avenger comes in 3 flavours - Avenger, Avenger Vulkan, Avenger Invictus. All plastic kits.
- Space Marine Gale Claw Supremacy Fighter - An anti-aircraft fighter craft, to complement the anti-ground biased Stormtalon?
- Space Marine Land Raider Medusa - No info on armament

- Ork Flying Fortress / Rok Launcher - my total guess is this would be a Bomber or Landa equivalent?
- Ork Gun Fortress / Mega Tellyporta - Gunfortress like an Epic Gunfortress? Or a static piece of terrain? Can also be built as a huge Tellyporta.
- Ork Tellyporta Nobz - Presumably they're Nobz with the teleport ability like Terminators!

All with the caveat that that release list could well turn out to be false... but if it's not, there are some really big shifts there that will leave Epic lagging.

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Ulrik

Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:47 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
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Location: Oslo, Norway

I don't really mind Epic "lagging" behind that...

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