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Formations Off-board

 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:53 pm 
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My current take on it would be...
===

1) A reserve formation may choose whether or not to activate.

2) A reserve formation may rally in the end phase as normal.

3) A reserve formation which chooses to activate must attempt to move onto the board.  Much like a formation obligated to move out of an enemy ZoC or into formation coherency, it must attempt an action which will allow it to enter play.

4) A reserve formation which fails to activate takes a BM as normal for a failed activation.  It has the normal Hold options - move, shoot or regroup.  If moving onto the board is restricted (e.g. ZoC blocking the gate) that option is not available.  Shooting is not available off-board.  Regrouping could be used to remove the BM.

===

#1 - It's been well-established that Eldar formations in the Webway get to choose when they come out, and are not forced to move onto the board immediately, so this is the same as the standing rule which has, so far, not caused any problems.

#2 - This is the same as the current rules for formations that are prevented from activating on their own - a formation loaded on an aircraft off-board, a formation loaded in a WE.  Like #1, it's worked fine so far so it shouldn't be changed unless some issue is exposed.

#3 - Mandatory entering of play upon activation prevents "burning" activations offboard as well as bypassing all the potential issues specific to regenerating Necrons.

#4 - This gives the player a small choice if the formation fails.

I'm fairly certain #4 is also the closest thing to a consensus from the last time the Eldar gates had this discussion.  The main point in that conversation (iirc) was concern over the availability of gates if a formation failed to activate, i.e. did that use the gate's capacity.  The conclusion was that the failed activation did not use up the gate's capacity which obviously means the formation is not forced to come through the gate.


The issue with #4 is with Necrons choosing to Regroup, which will allow them to Regenerate off-board if they fail.  I could see a Necron player with a badly bloodied formation off-board choosing to Retain with that formation in the hopes of failing to activate and Regrouping off-board (-1 for BMs, -1 for Retain).  That could theoretically have some tactical advantage over a Marshall/Move with the formation Regrouping on the board.

How often would a Necron formation be in a situation where it was really advantageous to fail an off-board activation?  Is that a big enough problem that we need to disallow it and change the rules just for the Necrons?

After all, a failed on-board activation has a similar reduced downside for the Necrons compared to the failed activations of other armies.  Barring some very specific tactical needs, that Regroup/regenerate is just better than the normal choices.  In that respect, a superior failed activation result while off-board isn't exactly bizarre.


So... Are we going with this?  NetERC approved?  I think it is important to put this in Raiders 2.0 as an FAQ but I don't want to FAQ it if it turns out to be contrary to how we should be playing.

Chroma? Neal? Hena?

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:37 pm 
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We've been discussing it.  We don't have a final call on it.

My opinion is we need to address it as a general feature of the rules that would apply to everyone, and then address any Necron-specific deviation from that based on their specific special rules/exceptions.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 27 2010, 14:37 )

We've been discussing it.  We don't have a final call on it.

We are dicussing it... so, stay tuned!

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:33 am 
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just to weigh my oar in  :p

I would play it that formations in reserve (not including aircraft inc. t/hawks which are a special case, being aircraft) may choose to activate ONLY to move onto the board. If they fail to activate, they gain a BM and can EITHER move onto the board with that BM OR regroup as part of that failed activation in the reserves, losing that BM. For all armies except Necrons, this is all that they can do in reserves.

Eg. Eldar guardian fm wants to engage out of webway and fails activation. it can either move out with an advance, keeping that BM or twiddle it's thumbs in the Webway, losing the BM. Initiative passes to the opponent as for any other failed activation.

For Necrons, the special little dead buddies that they are, they have the same options. However, due to the Necron rule, they can regroup and regain units/shed BMs. They can then also rally in the end phase as normal for Necrons (plus the gain 1 unit or remove 1 BM Necron rule, right?). If that's deemed too powerful, then the "regroup as a result of failed activation to move out of portal" could have an addendum to the effect that Necrons can either lose the single BM they gained OR regain 1 unit (much like the current void-shied-esque rule).

That make any sense? That would put them on a par with other reserve/portal armies without dicking around too much with the game mechanic which, IMO, seems to work okay as is.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:58 am 
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Trying to keep the Necron discussion going.  Obviously these two threads are intertwined so I'm linking to this one for reference purposes.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:54 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 27 2010, 14:37 )

We've been discussing it.  We don't have a final call on it.

My opinion is we need to address it as a general feature of the rules that would apply to everyone, and then address any Necron-specific deviation from that based on their specific special rules/exceptions.

Any progress on this, given Moscovian's push (and ongoing debate) around Necrons

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:58 pm 
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FWIW, they should really just allow regrouping off board.  We're going to put a restriction on the Necrons via their own special rules anyway so I see no need to modify the original FAQ Neal wrote up on page 4.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Mosc, I am not sure it is quite as clear cut as that. Neal's response that you quoted was written in an attempt to cover all situations including the Necrons. Later he suggested that we should consider a general approach with the Necrons modifying things to suit their particular list. And there are other elements that also need to be covered.

Specifically on Marshalling off-table (burning activations), I am still concerned that Neal's proposal hurts the Eldar by artificially giving their opponents a significant activation advantage, and usually because the Eldar have experienced some problem. Where the Eldar are using a 'portal' based strategy they will typically have 2-4 activations off-table from 10-12 total (in a 3000 point army). Against an opponent with similar numbers of activations, forcing the player to announce he is passing simply allows the opponent that number of 'free' activations to exploit the position, while "burning" activations means the opponent must potentially consider the impact of these activations.

"Burning" activations early to stall is not usually as advantageous as it might seem because the activations being 'burnt' are normally significant ones, leaving the Eldar with a weak on-table force that is potentially still out-numbered and gives the opponent further chances to destroy the Eldar Storm Serpents.

Forcing the player to move on-table is also problematic, mainly because of the Eldar initiative and inability to remove BMs - the Storm Serpents will fail to activate 1/3 of the time leaving the army out of position. The only time the Eldar will stay off-table deliberately is when it is disadvantageous for them to enter. So the enemy must have some advantage already, even if it is that the Storm Serpents have failed to activate and stayed still to remove BMs. Where a formation has covered a gate with its ZoC, especially where there is insufficient room to deploy the entire Eldar formation (so an engage activation would result in the destruction of units forced to remain off-table) the Eldar are already in difficulties - why increase the problems?

On the Necrons, which ever of the three options are chosen, does "burning" activations by marshalling off-table cause problems - if so, could you write the Necron special rule to correct the issues rather than further nerfing the Eldar because this gives the Necrons an unfair advantage.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Feb. 12 2010, 21:20 )

On the Necrons, which ever of the three options are chosen, does "burning" activations by marshalling off-table cause problems - if so, could you write the Necron special rule to correct the issues rather than further nerfing the Eldar because this gives the Necrons an unfair advantage.

Yes it does; it allows the necrons to draw out all enemy activations before bringing important formations on to the board. Admittedly this is harder now there are no single monoliths.

I don't think any army should be able to activate offboard formations without bringing them on. i've done it myself in the past and it feels gamey.




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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Ginger, the eldar player has chosen to use the advantage that his formations are safe in the web way until advantageous for them to deploy.

The downside is that they will likely be out activated on the battlefield. It's a risk you take in choosing to place a large force in the web.


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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:03 am 
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Meph, I don't disagree that the Eldar player has chosen a strategy that potentially puts his army at risk - that is part of the point. My issue is that forcing the player either the come on-table or to 'pass' is putting him at a further disadvantage, and will effectively deter people from using this strategy.

Zombo, the Necrons are a potentially a 'special' case that ought to be treated as such. If I understand you correctly, the issue is not with using portals per se, but rather the significant use of portals together with the the other Necron traits (regeneration and BM removal). If it feels 'gamey' when used with the Necrons, then by all means find an acceptable rule for them that reduces the potential Necron abuse of portals.

The point here is that Eldar are not Necrons and so cannot pop in and out, nor regenerate. And when they remove BMs, they are typically more static than Necrons (who get to pop out of a mobile portal - provided it survives of course).

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:09 am 
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Ginger: No army was ever supposed to be able to "stand down" with non-aircraft formations. They have only ever been allowed to take an activation if it brings them onto the board.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:33 am 
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Second verse, same as the first... I'm Henry the Eighth I am...

Okay, I am going to do something that is probably going to irritate everybody - I am closing the thread.  The positions are known, the arguments are the same, and the NetERC decision is obviously needed as this won't be resolved without a decision.

Ginger, your position is articulately written and I completely understand where you are coming from.  I just disagree as do others.  But this isn't a you vs. me situation.  There are about five different opinions out here and I think the NetERC are more than capable of re-opening the thread (or creating a new one) when they come to a conclusion or if they feel they need more input.

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 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:33 am 
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Closing pending decision from NetERC.

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