Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 243 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17  Next

Is Epic lagging behind?

 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:51 pm
Posts: 582
I have to agree with Evil & Chaos to a certain degree, that introducing the new 40k units into Epic would be a good idea. However I think we would quickly run into the issue of available models - players wanting to start an epic SM army and seeing a stormtalon listed would automatically want to know where to find the appropriate model. We can see this in the discussion happening over the Lost and the Damned lists where the development of the list is partially limited by the inaccessibility of OOP models.

I think something like the Collectors section of the rulebook is a good idea to have as it would allow the publication of generally agreed stats for these kinds of units for friendly play. Then when the main groupings (EpicUK, NetEA etc) came around to updating their lists, they would have a pool of already playtested units to pull from.

_________________
My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
I think we would quickly run into the issue of available models

It would be very important to recommend suitable conversions or proxies.

For example, for a Stormtalon, you could recommend using a 2nd Edition Thunderhawk Gunship (they're certainly small enough to be fighters).
For a Land Speeder Storm, you could recommend using a normal Land Speeder but only stick a Heavy Bolter to it.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Model availability is a problem i agree. That's because GW won't release new models for Epic. But here comes the community inplay which does an excellent job in providing proxies. Other companies are providing models which canbe used for Epic too. The models won't look exactly like the Wh40k sized ones but better a wrong looking model than no model at all.

And perhabs it is the time of the year but i too have the feeling that most Army Champions just don't do their "work" (as volunteer nonetheless) anymore.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:51 pm
Posts: 582
BlackLegion wrote:
And perhabs it is the time of the year but i too have the feeling that most Army Champions just don't do their "work" (as volunteer nonetheless) anymore.


I also get the impression that we are honestly starting to run out of things to change - the lists we have have stagnated because the changes being proposed are either too small to make people care or have been discussed to death and are seen as unresolvable (Warhounds and SM). Given that this has happened with the established lists, the only avenue open for new development by new developers is new lists.

New lists are a pretty daunting thing to take on, which puts people off. The lengthy process is another factor that drops enthusiasm, plus the intermianble drama and bitching over any major changes...

_________________
My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:14 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
I'm not sure if the issue is really the work required...

I haven't really got much first-hand experience, but I think the major hurdle is getting your new list tested outside your gaming group?

Also, is there a way to subject feedback other than in whatever thread the list designer is using?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Gaming group...
I'm glad that i finally HAVE a gaming group. But they are more interested in FoW, WHF and Wh40k. At least two guys are mildly interested in Epic.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Ulrik wrote:
I haven't really got much first-hand experience, but I think the major hurdle is getting your new list tested outside your gaming group?

Getting a new variant list tested by multiple gaming groups is easy.
Just come up with a good list idea that fills a niche.

...I posted a Craftworld Mymeara (tank themed) list for Eldar a few weeks back. Two gaming groups are already playing it and sending me reports, and when I start trying it out that'll be three groups. Incidentally, that list is up for grabs if anyone wants to take over.

If your list is obviously unbalanced, or has a weak theme, it'll get no attention, but frankly both those things can be avoided with a little application of brains.

As to there not being much left to tweak on existing Approved lists, a Champion in that position should be developing a new variant list, not resting on his laurels for years.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9655
Location: Manalapan, FL
BlackLegion wrote:
And perhabs it is the time of the year but i too have the feeling that most Army Champions just don't do their "work" (as volunteer nonetheless) anymore.


I don't know if I would go as far as saying "they're not doing their job" but I will point out that no where have I seen a clear, concise, well articulated set of expectations for an AC written out. Forgive me if this exists but if it does then it's not easy to find (or I'm getting blind in my old age :)). This should spell out the type of concrete actions and activities expected of them (as opposed to vague broad terms what an AC is)

For instance they should:
-Articulate a vision for the list explaining the gap it fills and theme. This should be part of the list itself and published as part of the compendium or as an addendum thus providing a litmus test for evaluating the list as well as assisting potential players as in WHY they'd use this list in the first place. This also being public will help keep lists on track if they have to be handed over to another due to life interfering (see below and the lamentable recent events in AdMech land)
-Provide a roadmap intended for the list development. See "Skitarii Legions Roadmap" AdMech thread for a pretty good example of what I feel should have been done from Day 1 regardless of anyone's personal opinions on said path (and the regrettable history therein). Explain how you are going to get from inception to an approved list. If you can't do that then you don't belong as an AC OR this list should be a fan list.
-ACTIVELY recruit play-testers for the list. It isn't enough to simply put it out there and occasionally bump it asking "if there's any takers". Going along with this theme is the ability to help train people with the thought processes that go along with how to perform good play testing. This alone will pay off in droves.
-COLLATE and write findings from play testing. Suggest avenues of research and interaction "let's do this crazy thing and see what happens when we push the list to breaking?". Again, some of us instinctively do this already. Teach others this skill.
-Be held accountable by the ERC to regularly publish updates and accounting for the above. They should be responsible for being available and regularly communicating status back to the ERC and community at large. When/if they are no longer able to manage the duties to be responsible for discharging their responsibilities to another (you start, you're responsible for handing it off to another or better put: finish what you start). This is basic manners and responsibility of leadership, which frankly is what an AC is. This is a non-trivial thing and should cut down a bit having so many half baked never finished lists get started and dropped in the first place.

Some will fear that the above could have a killing effect on the game and community and perhaps so if not handled correctly. However I believe that it will naturally break things into two distinct but complementary camps: Official lists and Fan lists. This is a good thing. There's many people that want to do the latter (a good example IMHO is the Raptors fan list); Let them do it. Not everything must be a tourny list.

Finally we as a community, guided ACTIVELY by the ERC should hold up and recognize members that grow the official lists to approved status. It should be a huge badge of honor.

Of course maybe this is my neurotic yekke nature coming through but honestly this is what I've seen organically happening on successful lists already. Let's help people understand HOW to be an AC better and how ACs can support each other.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9655
Location: Manalapan, FL
kyussinchains wrote:
how about just creating a 'new units' pool?

every time GW releases a new unit or vehicle, just stat it up and stick it in the 'new units' pool for people to use in friendly games....? most 40k/wfb tournaments have comp rules anyway, keep the netea and epicuk lists as they are with minor annual tweaks to facilitate a level playing field for tournaments, then you're free to have units of stormtalons, necron upside-down barges and whatnot in epic, guys like yourselves will have new units to play with, miserable buggers like me can stick with the tournament lists..... I already pretty much only play with EpicUK lists as it is now

Time was that GW said you could only use special characters with your opponent's consent, why not have a list of 'opponents consent' units?


Actually this is exactly what I suggested in the Storm Talon thread. Not every unit HAS to be put into a official list. However it is apparent that there are people that feel strongly about particular units or variations and having someone (or a small group of people) that can be contacted to perform basic compilation and publishing of outlier units wouldn't be a bad thing. These are ONLY suggestions of stats/prices for friendly play, provides a great place and resource for ACs starting new lists that want to pull from to help assist some consistency, and simply makes it EASY for those of us that like to friendly play these oddities to find them without having to brute force search all of BLs posts for current stats each game ;)

Oh and to parrot E&C's point, "It would be very important to recommend suitable conversions or proxies" when suggesting a new unit. THUMBS up to that.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Proxies are easy.
This for the Storm Talon for example
Image
At least until some creative guy CADs some more fiting model into being :)

Thumbs up for the idea to provide stats for new units colected in one spot. But there shouldn't be only stats but formations for this units and appropiate points cost too.
At least for friendly games.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:46 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
On the models front, I don't agree about proxies at all..... If you'd be happy proxying an EW valkyrie as a storm talon, why not a GW thunderbolt? There are several sculpts, all very different..... I think if you start having to proxy extensively then that is as much of a divergence from 40k as the rules IMO.....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:51 pm
Posts: 582
kyussinchains wrote:
On the models front, I don't agree about proxies at all..... If you'd be happy proxying an EW valkyrie as a storm talon, why not a GW thunderbolt? There are several sculpts, all very different..... I think if you start having to proxy extensively then that is as much of a divergence from 40k as the rules IMO.....


I think that depends on how closely you are tied to the GW fluff - while strictly speaking all stormtalons would look the same, there is scope for different patterns / makes being made on different forgeworlds etc.

I do wonder if the focus the community has on the endless configurations of lists, sub-lists etc, has not had a negative impact on the hobby side - so the designing of scenarios, conversion guides, campaign mechanics, special characters etc.

_________________
My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9655
Location: Manalapan, FL
kyussinchains wrote:
On the models front, I don't agree about proxies at all..... If you'd be happy proxying an EW valkyrie as a storm talon, why not a GW thunderbolt?


Actually that's one of the suggestions in the Storm Talon thread. However this is in danger of becoming completely OT so let's drop the ST proxy specifics from here and take the excellent suggestions to the ST thread. :)
The point we're advocating however, with Storm Talon as an example, is how that more than just stats should be addressed. 1, more than a single proxy could be presented as a suggestion and 2, not everything has to be a proxy but instead can be a conversion (a good example would be a Russ Punisher or how to "marine-ify" a TBolt).

novemberrain wrote:
I do wonder if the focus the community has on the endless configurations of lists, sub-lists etc, has not had a negative impact on the hobby side - so the designing of scenarios, conversion guides, campaign mechanics, special characters etc.


^^ THIS + 100000 internet mod points ^^
I like the list variations but not at the expense of the others. When I saw Raiders and Siege come out I was like, "this is the start of something big". Oh how I was wrong. Somewhere along the way we've gotten so far down in the weeds that we've lost our way a bit, methinks. Granted not everything has to be a work of art like Raiders but where's the simple scenarios? Where's the chapter painting guides? Where's the fun fluff sides of things? Where's the modeling guides? Take a long hard look at some of the great stuff going on over at Bolter & Chainsword for inspiration. While it's completely 28mm centric there's nothing conceptually preventing the same for 6mm here. This is why I have nothing but mad respect of the gentle but firm nudge to step it up a notch with the How To Make Your Own Supliment. Big ups to angelbarracks on his shanty town project for being straight up inspirational modeling joy. i forget who did the truscale imperator but same thing. Everyone that's working on ToEG is keeping the hobby alive. We need more of that :)

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
novemberrain wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
I do wonder if the focus the community has on the endless configurations of lists, sub-lists etc, has not had a negative impact on the hobby side - so the designing of scenarios, conversion guides, campaign mechanics, special characters etc.

One of the new things I was looking to introduce with Epic : Mechanicus was Named Characters, done in a suitably Epic-appropriate low key style.

Of course, the supplement's dead, so it came to nothing, but hey I did try. :-)


Attachments:
named characters.pdf [31.07 KiB]
Downloaded 358 times

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:51 pm
Posts: 582
I have been thinking of doing some Phoenix Lord stats for a while...

_________________
My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 243 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net