Well as long as they are leaving the scouts ZOC and entering the targets then that's fine. If you're already in a ZOC you either have to leave it, or move into base to base. As the counter charging units will be leaving (or trying to leave) then I'd allow them to counter charge. Its when you have to enter another units ZOC before the target ZOC that you get blocked.

This all came up in the "can eldar move through a scout ZOC that it is already in" debate a few months back, and that was allowed IIRC.

They were allowed to shoot before leaving too, perfidious Eldars!

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Yes! That was the bit I think I found the most distressing thinking back!

So a WE can charge forward, grab the a formation and then drag it into friendly support/out of enemy support? That seems dastardly... to the point of being Eldar-like...

I'd point out that you need not grab the entire formation to do this, if you're not in the ZoC of an enemy there's no need to charge it.



I think it should behave the same in both situations.

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No more dastardly than many of the scout-related antics you regularly employ...

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You say that now, but wait until I try to use it in a game and see if it qualifies as a mere "antic".

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I can see that on a charge, but when counter charging you are forced to move towards the nearest enemy so the direction you can move is only towards whatever happens to be closest. No reversing back towards support fire!

Technically yes, though I've never seen or heard of it happening. The other restrictions (ZoC, countercharge towards nearest, and plain old move distance) make it virtually impossible.

The primary discussion on this point came up at a time when the playtest Nid Biotitan stats had Infiltrator. That was quickly removed.


True, but in reality this is hard to arrange. Formation coherency is 5cm, so you're almost always in ZoC of another unit. You'd have to hit a fairly dispersed formation somewhere in the middle but near an end, at an angle that would allow you to hit the other ZoCs so the next unit pulled you towards the open end until you ran out of all the other ZoCs.


The difference is that if a formation is directly involved, ZoC draws you in, while if it's a supporting formation, then you're supposed to avoid ZoC.

When the Scout is not involved, charging the closer, non-scout is in keeping with the spirit of both the the "avoid uninvolved ZoC" and charging the closer requirement.

When the Scout is involved, then you have two competing rules, in both letter and spirit - the ZoC draw-in and the charge closest. It's murkier.

I guess what I'm struggling with is why allow it all if it is possible, if not entirely easy to do, and can be used abusively? Wouldn't it just be simpler to disallow it by writing a FAQ that says that if you barge you stop moving when you reach your maximum base-contact allowance or have contacted the entire formation?



Would a make a difference to troopers on the ground though? A non-scout that engages in FF with Scout support or a scout that engages in FF with non-scout support are pretty much the same when you take away the activation abstraction. All this would be happening in real-time.

It be simpler if the unit counter-charged the same way no matter who started the assault.

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I must admit I find the whole scout ZoC issue a bit confusing, I think the FAQ should be a bit more generic and address the priority of the various conflicting rules.

Something else that happened in a recent game: A line of units is sandwiched between a line of scouts on one side and a line of non-scouts on the other. It is within the ZoC of the scouts, and the scout and non-scout ZoCs overlap. The units are thus positioned in such a way as to be unable to exit scout ZoC without entering another unit's ZoC. As I understand the FAQs it must therefore take an engage action, although it can still engage the non-scout formation provided it can get into its ZoC without entering another scout's ZoC first.

What happens if the formation fails its activation test? Since it can't satisfy both requirements of "move out of ZoC" and "may not enter ZoC", can it:
a) move out of ZoC, and can enter a second ZoC if it wishes
b) move as far as it can out of ZoC but without entering another ZoC
c) shoot or regroup
d) some combination of the above
e) nothing

Note that the situation is not really specific to scouts, it just makes it more likely to happen if at least one formation is scouts. Nor are multiple formations required. In addition, a similar situation can arise that does not involve entering new ZoCs, but where a unit is in multiple ZoCs and simply does not have the movement to move out of all of them.

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Where a formation is in the Zoc of the enemy and fails to activate, the rules do not allow it to do anything except try to move out of that ZoC (as per 1.7.3). If the situation is such that it cannot escape the ZoC, I would suggest that it will move as far as it can. Note while you are forced to move, under 1.7.3 there is no penalty for remaining within an enemy Zoc.

However, if the formation breaks and is unable to escape the enemy ZoC, then under 1.13.3 it is destroyed unless it is fearless.

I have a number of questions. First is, why bother with something that never happens? This is pure theory at this point. There's no point in changing a rule that is never used in practice, just because it creates a weird thought experiment.

Then the second questions, even if it were to occur, is this really abusive? If a Warhound uses an Engage action to overrun a lone Scout unit, yanking it out of line so it can reach an objective, is that abuse? It doesn't seem that way to me. Or a Warlord titan dragging a Tactical formation along with it (like the Ewoks that tried to trip the Imperial walker in Jedi )? I don't think so.


Good point. And since the countercharge rules are already an exception to the charge rules, it would make sense that the "countercharge the nearest" requirement would override as an exception.

I can go with that.


A good suggestion.


This question has come up before in the case of 0cm move units, which can easily end up in this situation. In that case, they cannot move out at all, so the only option is to attempt to Engage. The obvious "what happens if they fail" question follows, and that was framed in terms of whether they were forced to Engage anyway.

We decided that even though they can't actually move out, they have to attempt to follow the rules to the best of their abilities. That would be b), above.

Like counter-counter-countercharging from inside transports while on overwatch in the middle of a 70,000 point game?

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It has come up in one of my games before (a Harridan charging some Guardsmen I believe). I guess I don't see it as "changing a rule" more of "clarifying what you're allowed/not allowed to do" with a barge. You're right in that the number of units that can pull it off is rather limited (Warhound packs come to mind), but I guess the situation strikes me as a little odd as a representation of something that happens in a battle.

Ewoks getting dragged along by an AT-ST withstanding... the idea of Marines jogging behind Warhounds that have engaged them out into no-man's land seems rather absurd.

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Fair enough.


As the rule is written there is no restriction. Adding a restriction would be changing it. I suppose if you are of the opinion that there is an implied restriction it would be a clarification rather than a change, but I think it's fairly clear.


I'd say that what is "really" happening is that the WE is overrunning the position and the enemy units are forced out into the open, rather than an "Ewok drag."