Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Proposed Emperor Titan Rules

 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA
(Blarg D Impaler @ Jul. 23 2007,14:13)
Completely gibberish?  Wow, thanks Lord Inquisitor.  I know they weren't written with the skill of William Shakespeare, but I didn't think they were that bad.  Do you think you could take a second, slower look at them and think about them some?  Yes, they could have been done with a table, but I wasn't thinking that far ahead when I wrote them.  I was looking to put finger to keyboard so I could get my thoughts down and have them critically reviewed.


I do apologise, that was completely uncalled for, and not at all what I meant. They're not complete gibberish. They're clearly very well-thought-out and detailed rules, and I thank you for such a calm and reasonable response. That's what happens if I post before getting any caffeine into me. So, sorry, and please disregard that.  You sir are a gentleman and I am truly a cad.  


Thank you for your apology, I appreciate it.  Let's consider the matter done.

Nevertheless, while with great care and patience they can be followed, I would (probably due to my own stupidity and incompetence) find them almost impossible to use them in game, which would involve my opponent looking annoyed while I shout things like "no, wait, I can't do that after all, let's take it back".

Basically, I think you can go a lot further towards making the chassis the real formation. If the chassis sustains, then all weapons get +1 to hit. If the chassis doubles, then all weapons get -1 to hit. Then the actual weapons just have the option to shoot or marshal.


My method of presentation does make the rules hard to use, but then again I never intended for this to be the final product.  What I wrote up was for perusal, discussion, and correction.  I think your idea to just simply through a to-hit modifier based upon the Chassis' orders is an excellent suggestion and deserving of further review.  When I get some free time (Ha ha ha ha ha!!!  :D   Boy, free time...) I'll deep dive into your suggestion, unless somebody beats me to it.

As for Engages, I think that only the chassis can make an Engage action, and the other parts can either join in or not, depending on whether they have the action free or not.

That said, if you intend for those locations not participating in an assault to lend supporting fire, why would you ever actually use multiple body parts to assault - you can just use them to support and still get the same firefight attacks.

I hadn't thought about that.  I was so busy trying to allow sections to participate or not that I completely forgot to think that their presence will mean that they are within 15cm and will therefore get to participate in assaults due to proximity.

This is going to beg the question: Do we want to allow MegaWE to be able to assault with their chassis, get the full number of attacks AND be able to fire weapons in other sections?  Is this really a problem, or not?  If it is, is this counteracted by the fact that the combat ability of the MegaWE can get degraded as sections are destroyed, unlike normal WE?

I don't really like the idea of the left arm initiating an assault. I think either the whole Titan goes in, or it doesn't.

And now that I think about it I have to agree.  The assumption was that when the Chassis does an Engage that all of the other sections that have Engage orders will activate at the same time and go at the same time.  But that is not necessarily the case and you can get situations where there could be multiple assaults against the same formations within one turn.

Incidentally, are we assuming that the enemy can just pick out a part of the titan to attack, or will there be some kind of hit location chart?

All hits, be they from firing, FF, or CC will be randomized based upon a chart:

Emperor Class Titan Damage Allocation Chart (1D6)
1- Chassis
2- Chassis
3- Carapace
4- Carapace
5- Left Arm
6- Right Arm

I think this will have to be reviewed in regards to CC hits.  After all, how would a foot slogging INF stand be able to register a hit on a section of titan that is several stories over their head?  Jump packs and skimmers, maybe...  

That, and while the normal rules should suffice regarding infantry carried in the chassis and counter-charges, I think some clarification and restatement should be in order in case INF, AV, and non-walker WE assault the Emperor class.

_________________
I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Lord Inquisitor @ Jul. 23 2007,20:58)
QUOTE
Too simple! You've not outlined exactly how the different parts of the titan interact. Can I double with the torso and sustain with the arms?

Incidentally, are we assuming that the enemy can just pick out a part of the titan to attack, or will there be some kind of hit location chart?

Okay then, how's this:

Click Here.

Not trying to be difficult or anything, but I think that tracking seperate DC across the different areas of the Titan isn't really in the spirit of how Epic operates in this edition. (Plus I think it'd be better done with proper damage tables).





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
It looks great!

However, the wording is far from watertight. You need to make it clear that they activate as seperate formations.

What about blast markers? What about suppression? What about engages? The rules do need to be more complicated.

Personally I really like the idea of treating each part as a separate part of the machine. DC18 is incredibly hard to kill. However, a DC4 arm is a much more attainable possibility.

That said, yours does have elegant simplicity on it's side, but I think we can be a little complicated with this guy. A table of criticals is no bad idea.

I really don't like the random characteristics for the main weapons. I would simply give them a value.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
What about blast markers? What about suppression? What about engages? The rules do need to be more complicated.


Feel free to suggest and I'll write 'em straight in there.

What about blast markers?

They go on the hull.




However, a DC4 arm is a much more attainable possibility.

And what if you kill the main hull... why doesn't it fall over?

I'd far rather that such damage was represented with a damage table, rather than having to keep track of:

a - DC for each segment.
b - BM's for each segment.
c - Critical hits for each segment.

It's unworkable as anything other than a bookkeeping game.



What about suppression?

It's DC-18, so it doesn't get surpressed... it breaks.

What about engages?

I'll add a note that Secondary Systems aren't allowed to use the Engage order.



I really don't like the random characteristics for the main weapons. I would simply give them a value.

I also dislike them, but I was going with Blarg's stats.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:25 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Blarg:  Maybe I missed it, but what happens if the Chassis is Broken?  What happens if the Chassis is destroyed?

Lord I got to the questions about assaults before I did, but there are actually even more squirrelly results that could happen.

How do you allocate to-hit rolls from barrages?  They have special rules for centering on a WE, based on the DC.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
Food for thought ... since I just completed my I-Titan Mk.L4 ... was not really sure how to stat him.  Some good ideas for weapons data ... Thanks Boyz !  :D  :blues:

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA
Blarg:  Maybe I missed it, but what happens if the Chassis is Broken?  What happens if the Chassis is destroyed?


No, you didn't miss it, it's not there.  I left it out on purpose as a conversation hook.  Thanks for taking the bait!

There are two schools of thought, off the top of my head, about when to consider the Emperor dead: DC kill and Chassis kill.

DC kill follows the typical thinking in the game about WE - when you do damage up to the DC of the MegaWE (18 in the case of the Emperor) you have destroyed it.  When you destroy all of the DC for a section it stops functioning.  Note the use of the phrase "stops functioning" instead of "is destroyed."  This is important because when you talk about the chassis you are talking about the body upon which everything rests.  If you say that the chassis stops functioning you are also saying that it is still present and strong enough to allow the other sections to operate.  This is somewhat realistic when you consider just how massive the Emperor class titan is.  If this is the thinking that we want to follow then the damage allocation rules need to be updated to show that when you hit a section that has no damage points remaining you re-roll until you roll for a section that has DC points remaining.

Chassis kill follows the line of thought that marking off DC points is destroying it, and since the Chassis is the body of the titan you can only consider the titan killed when you have destroyed the Chassis.  While this follows more conventional thinking in regards to what it means to mark off damage on a WE you are going to create odd situations, ranging from the 7 damage Emperor kill all the way up to the unstoppable Emperor because nobody could damage the Chassis.  Inherent with this thinking will be damage allocation rules that say that if your damage allocation roll has the hit landing on an already destroyed section then that shot is lost.

I personally would rather go the DC kill approach, but I'm interested in hearing commentary in any direction.

How do you allocate to-hit rolls from barrages?  They have special rules for centering on a WE, based on the DC.

The Emperor class titan has a DC18, making for 9 attacks from a barrage.  You roll for the number of hits and then randomly allocate each hit to a section.  proceed as normal from there.  I guess that should be spelled out in the rules...

_________________
I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:29 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
What happens if the chassis is broken?  Withdrawal moves and non-activation of the chassis mucks up the order/movement system.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Blarg,

Some more thoughts for you:

Criticals: as much as I enjoy the flavor of the variable criticals, in this particular case it just is too much.  With so much going on with a megaWE I would recommend a very simply critical hit explanation.  Off the top of my head, a critical hit would cause D3 damage to the chassis and an additional D2 damage to the limbs (player chooses).  If a limb takes a critical have it destroyed/non functioning.    

Chassis: IMO if the Chassis is brought to zero DC, the WE should be destroyed.  I can't think of any other way to make it work.  Now I do believe that the chassis could have its DC upped based on that fact (so you don't spend 2000 points on a giant hunk of metal).

Limbs: I am all for each section of the megaWE operating independantly along with each section having its own DC.  In regard to the orders though, the limbs should have a very limited menu of selections.  If the chassis is moving on a single the limbs should fire on a single, chassis doubling the limbs fire on a -1.  If the chassis is sustaining, the limbs should only be able to fire (no sustain).  This would mean that, while each part operates independently, the whole of the WE still needs to work together in some capacity and the movement/action of those parts will prevent a sustained fire.  While this would be a limiter to the weapons, I don't think we need to worry too much about underpowering the Imperator.    It certainly would make it easier to manage!

Thoughts?

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA
This might be oversimplifying things, but it would be simpler. How about keeping the Imperator as one unit for activations and DC, keeping weapons in separate groups (each arm, carapace, chassis), but allowing them to split fire?

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Dwarf Supreme @ Jul. 24 2007,15:53)
QUOTE
This might be oversimplifying things, but it would be simpler. How about keeping the Imperator as one unit for activations and DC, keeping weapons in separate groups (each arm, carapace, chassis), but allowing them to split fire?

I think it requires seperate activations, if only to keep the flow of the E:A game going.

Of course, I may be biased. :)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA
Honestly, I'm not convinced it needs separate activations.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

(Dwarf Supreme @ Jul. 24 2007,10:59)
QUOTE
Honestly, I'm not convinced it needs separate activations.

To be honest, allowing the Imperator and other MegaWE to split fire would be the simplest and easiest thing to do.  But when the Imperator was last talked about seriously back on the old SG forums if you mentioned letting a unit split fire then people screamed like you were bayonetting babies or something.  Everybody was more interested in slavishly adhering to Jervis' scant mutterings and blocking other people's ideas than actually fixing problems.  The idea of splitting up the Imperator into seperate sections was an attempt to make it operate more realistically and split fire without it actually "splitting fire."

_________________
I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA
Since it's unlikely that stats for the Imperator, or the Mega-Gargant, will ever become official and allowed in a tournament, why are we even bothering to adhere to GW's proclamations? In general, I'm all for allowing Titans to split fire anyway.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Proposed Emperor Titan Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

(nealhunt @ Jul. 24 2007,09:29)
QUOTE
What happens if the chassis is broken? ?Withdrawal moves and non-activation of the chassis mucks up the order/movement system.

Assuming we go with the DC kill approach, where if the Chassis is rendered inoperative the rest of the Emperor can fight, then the last paragraph of rule 1.13.3 Withdrawls comes into play:

Units with a speed of 0cm obviously cannot move when making a withdrawl, so are destroyed if there are any enemy units within 15cm at the point they become broken.

But this rendered moot by the fact that all of the sections of the Emperor Class Titan are Fearless:

Units that are fearless are immune to damage from losing an assault (both the additional hits and being wiped out if already broken), for ending a withdrawal within 15cms of the enemy, and from the damage inflicted by Blast markers if broken. Note that other units in the formation that are not fearless will be affected normally by additional hits for Blast markers or losing an assault or whatever ? just don?t allocate any of the hits to the units that are immune, but hand them out as normal to units that are not.

So, the end result is that if the Emperor's Chassis is rendered inoperable then withdrawl for the other sections is not a rules concern...

_________________
I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net