Ben, those photos were not from in-game situations. Please don't assume that we are all just charging head first into Gorgons

Considering that friendly barging/countercharging is a key part of War Engines actions in an Engagement it is obvious to mention them both at the same time.
I'm well aware what this thread is about... I'm indirectly responsible for the topic of this thread

MikeT, have you actually read the WHOLE thread?
Have you played against many mixed War Engine/infantry formations? Have you played against these huge Krieg infantry formations?

I ask because anyone who has faced these formations when friendly barging is allowed will know that these situations are not tactically challenging... it's just a walk up win for the Krieg player.

It would be good if future comments were addressed to Ginger, Mephiston, Jaggedtoothgrin and even Evil & Chaos aswell as the the others that think that friendly barging is not on (carlos for one). All these guys seem to have similar outlooks to me. Evil & Chaos wrote the Krieg list and when they playtested it, they did not allow friendly barging.

This really is simple and continued attempts to complicate it just seem counterproductive.
The FAQ states quite clearly that Barging only allows the War Engine to move enemy units. Why is this so complcated?

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Not really, since the krieg player keeps everything bunched up. As soon as something is engaged then pretty much everything else can move up into firefight range... unless barging friendlies is disallowed as it should be. The photo examples show this quite clearly.

_________________

That's almost 30 cm wide. just about any formation would be able to clip that and get just the right most 2 or 6 infantry. Even with counter charges, the most that would get in is the gorgon. That's less than half the formation and would be a fairly standard and easy to implement tactic against a low move, low initiative formation/army like that.

Devestators in Thunderhawks think that looks tasty.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Friendly barging only comes into play during counter charges as, during an engage, the engaging player can obviously move his War engines first, then the infantry/vehicles round them. And, for the record, yes, I have played against
mixed war engine/infantry formations, namely a number of ork warbands mounted in battlefortresses. I'm pretty sure we allowed friendly barging there as to not do so seemed far to gamey and rules lawyerly.




Yet you're the one conflating "War Engines barging friendlies" with "Krieg mounted infantry companies are overpowered" to the exclusion of all other potential situations. You obviously feel that the 425 formation is too effective for their points and seem to think removing barging freindlies is the answer.



FAQ answers are not in any way meant to be definiative rules, instead are only meant to be read in relation to the specific question they're attached to. Without that, the whole question is a lot more murky anf hey! we've got a thread about it in EA Rules Amendments discussing it!

Quiet you! Krieg mounted companies are indestructible, game breaking and undefeatable! There's literally no way to successfully engage them AT ALL.

Don't be nasty.

It is true that when my group playtested the Krieg list (As part of a wider playtesting effort) we did not use "friendly barging".

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

How? If there are fewer dice, how many fewer? Which attacks are gone? What kind of difference has it made in assaults? How much has a typical resolution roll shifted?

Your description sounds as if it was mostly a matter of physical rearrangement and the net result is that there is very little change. That's pretty much what I expected. If we're talking about 1 casualty difference on average, that's not much change in terms of assault balance and the gamey approach to the rules isn't really gaining anything.

OTOH, if you're talking about a big swing that has real in-game effect beyond "it feels more fair," I want to know what has happened and why it's not just a simple matter of arranging the formation differently.

Interesting question why this issue hasn't come up with Ork Battlefortresses. Don't they compound the problem by actually being good at CC, and falling in the 10cm countercharge bracket?

Grots don't count as casualties and Nobz have the same save as Forts (4+, no RA) so there's not as much protection to be gained by putting the forts in base contact. Also, Forts are decent at FF, while the Ork infantry prefer CC, so there's no attacks to be gained.

I, for one, am looking forward to my harridan+gargoyle and tervigon+gaunt fms (and others in the nids list) w/ this amend. Combined arms, baby! Just like real life big bug/small bug formation tactics that are seen in every day contemporary battlefields.

_________________

Oops. Somehow convinced myself that I saw RA in the battlefortress stat-line. :-/.

That said, it raises the issue whether it's barging that's the problem, or the Gorgon's stat-line.


:-). touche.
With great power comes great expectations.

I did mention it earlier but it seems that not everyone is reading what I've said

Matt's photos are not in-game situations. He put the photos together to try and help clarify the situation. Unfortunately, people keep trying to use these pictures as proof of something. They Aren't.
I have never seen anyone use that particular formation and I'd be salivating in anticipation if they did. To suggest that the photo helps with tactics to fight mixed WE/infantry formations is at best unhelpful.

I don't mind if the WE is able to get to the front and take the hits as a reward for carful planning by the mixed WE/infantry player. It should not be a freeby to always be able to place the WE in a favourable position. A clever opponent should be able to outmanuver the WE and be rewarded with an interesting engagement.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

It literally says it's an in game photo IN the photo.

Once again, friendly barging is only really going to come up in counter charges, with the shorter move and more constrained movement restrictions; it's not really going to effect the general effectiveness of the specific krieg formation you're talking about. I just worry that being overly restrictive like this will lead to War Engine users using the smallest base possible and micro managing the placement of every unit after every move, in this case to leave 20mm channels between each base to allow the Gorgons to fit through and hence countercharge.

Engagements are supposed to be swirling affairs, with flying power fists hitting a poor dude 15 cm away from the originating terminator stand (Which I think is a good thing). Having an infantry stand suddenly locked in place, preventing something like a gorgon advancing seems counterintuitive in this situation.

There's a simple solution - give minimum dimensions for War Engines.

This isn't THAT ridiculous, actually - and it certainly makes a difference if a WE is 1"x1" or an Imperator Titan.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread